Home... Apocalyptic... Apocryphal... Awakening... Baptism.....Caneridge... Church.... Colonial... Godhead.... MaxLucado... Lynn.Aderson... Musical Worship... Preaching... Restoration... RubelShelly... Search Our Site... Tongues... Topical...

iBelieve.com Reviews

iBelieve.com forum participants and a New Anti Movement. The focus is against the non-instrumental music position and Biblical Baptism as opposed to Zwinglianism (1525). We hope to answer those who make NOT using instruments into some form of evil without having the "birds" pick up the seed.

The NEW STYLE WORSHIP (from before the flood) connected to TRAFFIC like that of Lucifer or Commerce is the MARK identified by Apollo, the Locusts (resurrected muses), the Babylon Whore and her musicians in Revelation 18.

The Unfruitful Vineyard (Isa. 5) By: Rubel Shelly Reviewed to Repudiate MUSIC and the New Wineskin concept

Some new material on the GOSPEL and BAPTISM. He that BELIEVETH is he that goes on to baptism. However, BELIEVETH NOT causes one to be damned because by rejecting the direct commands of God in Jesus they reveal themselves as treacherous. Click for the latest

Forsake not the "what"? Jesus promised to build an ekklesia but not a church. The church is named after "Circe" the holy whore used by Jon the Baptist to MARK the harlot church. The word ekklesia is equivalent to variour forms of SYNAGOGUE. Synagogue is a Greek and not a Hebrew word.

A more recent "ancestry" is the 60s hippie movement, the children of God and various versions of "The Family of God."

Look To The Hills Leadership and Worship Conference

TODAY'S SERMON TODAY: Making a place for "homosexuals in the heart but not in the present flesh." Exactly what the Episcopals said.

From Rubel Shelly on iBelieve.com

The question for all of us is not what the Bible says, but how and why... Why don't we at least entertain the possibility that the Bible simply reflects an ANCIENT TABOO or homophobic prejudice in a few people like Paul -- a taboo and prejudice we need to outgrow?

The homosexual explanations I have visited make the argument that HOMOSEXUALITY is not wrong because the SCRIPTURES must be read in the context of what God WOULD HAVE said if He had lived in our world. They make a strong effort to make the BIBLE say that its own writers were BRAIN DAMAGED and just reflected their culture.

The Jesus Proposal Book Review. YOU must abandon YOUR right to interpret the Bible and speak it outside of the control of the community which means COMMUNE.

The Jesus Proposal page 30: John's chronology does not fit the synoptics so, guess what?

Rubel Shelly and John York: How do I make sense of Jesus going back and forth, back and forth between Galilee and Jerusalem in John's account

when he never goes to Jerusalem in Matthew, Mark, and Luke until the very end of his ministry?

CLAIMING TO BE "GODS STANDING IN THE HOLY PLACE" to which no sOHISTs (serpents), singers or musicians could go without being SACRIFICED.

But the objective truth in the Bible is NOT what John had in mind:

But that's not the witness, the testimony John wants me to confirm.

What I am called to affirm with the

witness of my own life is that authenticating Spirit-presence

that reveals itself when I keep heaven's commandments here on earth, live the from-above life in my down-below setting.

Rubel Shelly and John York says that "work out your own salvation" meant that the believers, with assistance from God, worked out the scripture for THEIR culture. Now that culture has changed, and apparently God made no provisions, WE have to work out our OWN scriptres.

Question One from iBelieve.com Forum: "The flesh of the Word was named Jesus, if the Word already has the Spirit in it, then why was it necessary to have the Spirit of God descend on the Word before Jesus started His earthly ministry?"

Answer: I Believe that you should understand that the WORD is the name of God as He speaks and acts. The WORD was WITH God because he WAS GOD. There is only ONE God and He is pure or Holy Spirit in His nature. However, as Christ he laid aside His majesty and glory and came to earth in a BODY PREPARED FOR ME.

Paul notes that God manifested Himself as Father and Son where the Son abandons His Rights:

who, though he was God, did not demand and cling to his rights as God, Ph 2:6LIV

but laid aside his mighty power and glory, taking the disguise of a slave and becoming like men. Ph 2:7LIV

And he humbled himself even further, going so far as actually to die a criminal's death on a cross. Ph 2:8LIV

In Both Hebrew and Greek the wind or SPIRIT speaks of the One God who is pure Spirit or it speaks of the mental disposition of man or God. God is ONE and not a family of gods:

So shall they fear the name of the Lord from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him. Isaiah 59:19

And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord. Isaiah 59:20

As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord;

My spirit that is upon thee,

and my words which I have put in thy mouth,

shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever. Isaiah 59:21

AND there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: Isa 11:1

And the spirit of the Lord (Jehovah) shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord; Isa 11:2

And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: Isa 11:3 ]

Jesus was full Deity in the flesh under the roles (persona) of Father, Son and Spirit Col 2:9. Therefore, the spirit which rested on Jesus after his baptism was the SPIRIT OF words describing the LOGOS or WORD or rational argument of God. This was in the form of a Dove.

First it proved that the Spirit cannot be identified as a PERSON or people.

Second, the eternal battle with paganism was the battle with the MOTHER GODDES figures. These were seen as DAUGHTERS of the FATHER with the dove resting on them.

The dove in the case of Jesus proved that He was the SON of a FATHER and therefore repudiated the charismatic, musical worship of paganism and devotes itself totally to the WORD as a synagogue and not a "worship center."

God manifests in the personae of Father, Son and Spirit:



Father as Word

God or Spirit Being

Incarnate Word or Son

Revealed Word or Spirit

The witnesses on EARTH are:




God or Spirit Being


Word or Spirit

Question Two from iBelieve.com Forum: "Everyone" says that the church of Christ became an anti-instrument SECT by refusing to be forced into using instruments!"

Answer: No, that CANNOT be true. When a church has a long history of NOT doing something from the Apostolic period. And close to ALL of the historical evidence for 1850 years agrees with that position you have a view held en toto by that group.

If someone forces instruments into non-instrumental churches those who believe that is a sin are forced out by those "stealing church houses of widows."

The INSTRUMENTAL group which introduces something which DIFFERS from the always-held view are defined by all scholarship as the SECTARIANS.

Here are some including non-instrumentalists who perpetuate the ERROR:

Some of those mounting the Attack against non-instrumentalists: Olan Hicks: Guilt Clause and The Law of Silence--Pharisees and Hypocrites-- Passing The Guilt Clause-- Al Maxey--Robert Beasley--Dallas Burdette--Edward Fudge--Rubel Shelly Index--Paul Woodhouse--Grace Centered Magazine--Bill Swetmon--Jeff Walling Sister Singers--Jeff Walling Index Plus on Dancing. We review these writings fully. Any UNFAIRNESS will be corrected.

John Locke who is the father of your political and religious freedom defined heresy in this document which you may click and read.

But if they say that the articles which they require to be professed are consequences deduced from the Scripture,

it is undoubtedly well done of them who believe and profess such things as seem unto them so agreeable to the rule of faith.

But it would be very ill done to obtrude those things upon others unto whom they do not seem to be the indubitable doctrines of the Scripture;

and to make a separation for such things as these, which neither are nor can be fundamental,

is to become heretics;

Only those who INTRODUCE something new and not required by Scripture into a settled church are defined as the heretics.


Let us now consider schism, which is a crime near akin to it; for both these words seem unto me to signify an ill-grounded separation in ecclesiastical communion made about things not necessary. But since use, which is the supreme law in matter of language, has determined that

heresy relates to errors in faith, and

schism to those in worship or discipline, we must consider them under that distinction.

Schism, then, for the same reasons that have already been alleged,

is nothing else but a separation made in the communion of the Church

upon account of something in divine worship or ecclesiastical discipline that is not any necessary part of it.

Now, nothing in worship or discipline can be necessary to Christian communion (unity)

but what Christ our legislator, or the Apostles by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, have commanded in express words.

See notes of J. W. McGarvey who was forced out of his church because he could not endure the introduction of Instruments. No one really tried to defend instruments until the year 1878. This does not just include those who have to leave for their own conscience sake but those who OPPOSE instruments once they have been forced in would be ousted for sowing discord.

"I hold that the use of the instrument is sinful, I must not be requested to keep my mouth shut in the presence of sin, whether committed by the church or an individual.

The party which forces an organ into the church against the conscientious protest of a minority

is disorderly and schismatical,

not only because it stirs up strife, but because it is for the sake of a sinful innovation upon the divinely authorized worship and the church; and,

inasmuch as the persons acting are disorderly and schismatic,

it is the duty of all good people to withdraw from them until they repent (McGarvey in 1881).

Grannymom at iBelieve.com: God has NEVER said anywhere in the bible that He does not want to be worshipped with musical instruments.

"God ordained music for Himself and it started in heaven." Almost true: it really began with Lucifer (Zoe) who caused the angels to fall and brought wind, string and percussion instruments right into the garden of Eden. ZOE: you remember, she is claimed to have birth Jehovah who had to sing praise songs to her to get promoted to the seventh heaven--below the supreme God.

As for Hezekiah's PLAGUE STOPPING ANIMAL SACRIFICE which excluded, as usual, the common people. If your church house is being plagued and you are unable to worship you might cast out the pagan tools:

2Ch 29: 26 So the Levites stood ready with David's i, and
2Ch 29: 27 accompanied by trumpets and the i of David king
2Ch 30: 21 accompanied by the LORD's i of praise.

The "music" word is never used of the spiritual worship of God at any time in the Bible. Therefore, none of the listed examples of blowing horns or twanging harps is related to the worship of the people. Rather, it was the king at or around the old Jebusite high place in Jerusalem where the temple was the king's chapel. The common people were expelled during "lambs being led to the slaughter" being afflicted and oppressed by the noise making Levites.

In 2 Chronicles 29 Hezekiah's reform stopped a plague just as David's original sacrifice at the Jebusite fortress.

c. 1048 B.C. The precedent: David made a deal with God to stop the plagues which he (David) had caused. God gave David a Jebusite High Place to construct an alternative altar because he never lost the fear of God and could not go to Gibeon again. When he built the temple, Solomon did not consult God at Jerusalem but returned to Gibeon.

c. 728 B.C. Hezekiah's use: The Jerusalem temple was so polluted that not even animal sacrifices could be made there. The priests had set up alternative altars outside of the city. A plague was on the nation, the city and the temple. To collect the people inside of the walls, Hezekiah made a deal with God to purify the temple so that the priests and therefore the people would be more collected inside of Jerusalem and able to withstand a certain attack. The "congregation" was never the common people but the king, commanders of the army, city officials and clergy participated in these rituals.

This does not establish PATTERNISM for Christian worship which is wholly in the new PLACE of the human spirit.

While David did not use instrumental music at the dedication of his alternative altar to STOP THE PLAGUE, Hezekiah looked back for authority for a PLAGUE STOPPING animal sacrifice. God never commanded David to WORSHIP Him with either singer or instruments.

c. 445 B.C We have to wait hundreds of years before Nehemiah used this same precedent to restore the temple and animal sacrifices. Nehemiah makes it clear that it was David who commanded instrument after the Jebusite center was intended to be the site of a better "house" for God. Of course, God promised David a family through Jesus Christ and not a "worship center."

Conclusions: Therefore, to return to these purification rituals for authority for Christian worship is to repudiate the sacrifice of Christ and the purification of the human spirit as the new place where we "worship" in darkness and silenc: inside of our own spirit or closet.

When David broung on a plage for the census he brough on a plague on the people while David was the guilty party.

David finally confessed:

And David said unto God, Is it not I that commanded the people to be numbered? even I it is that have sinned and done evil indeed; but as for these sheep, what have they done? let thine hand, I pray thee, O Lord my God, be on me, and on my fathers house; but not on thy people, that they should be plagued. 1 Chronicles 21: 17

Then the angel of the Lord commanded Gad to say to David, that David should go up, and set up an altar unto the Lord in the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite. 1 Chronicles 21: 18

And David went up at the saying of Gad, which he spake in the name of the Lord. 1 Chronicles 21: 19

This was not worship and the common people did not attend. "The king and commanders of the army" organized Levitical warrior musicians for the later temple. There is no evidence that sound accompanied this PLAGUE STOPPING SACRIFICE.

Over 200 years later when Hezekiah became king the temple had effectively been polluted by pagan riguals and filled with garbage. For authority Hezekiah looked back at David's bargain with God delivered through Gad the "stargazer" to David whose kingdom had been turned over to "worship the starry host" because of the musical idolatry at Sinai and the demand for a king to replace God.

He in the first year of his reign, in the first month, opened the doors of the house of the Lord, and repaired them. 2 Chronicles 29: 3

And he brought in the priests and the Levites, and gathered them together into the east street, 2 Chronicles 29: 4

And said unto them, Hear me, ye Levites; sanctify now yourselves, and sanctify the house of the Lord God of your fathers, and carry forth the filthiness out of the holy place. 2 Chronicles 29: 5

For our fathers have trespassed, and done that which was evil in the eyes of the Lord our God, and have forsaken him, and have turned away their faces from the habitation of the Lord, and turned their backs. 2 Chronicles 29: 6

Also they have shut up the doors of the porch, and put out the lamps, and have not burned incense nor offered burnt offerings in the holy place unto the God of Israel. 2 Chronicles 29: 7

Wherefore the wrath of the Lord was upon Judah and Jerusalem, and he hath delivered them to trouble, to astonishment, and to hissing, as ye see with your eyes. 2 Chronicles 29: 8

Don't dare use this as "proof text" for modern "musical" or charismatic worship unless you think that the pagans have polluted (translated as play the flute, pollute or prostitute) your temple and you cannot make animal sacrifices to REPLACE Lord Jesus Christ.

The Levitical musical service as "hard bondage" could never enter into the Holy Place as a type of the church of Christ even to clean out the garbage.

The temple was a civil-shrine of a kingdom which was against God's will. As with most such temples the "people's congregation was excluded." Therefore,

Then Hezekiah the king rose early, and gathered the rulers of the city, and went up to the house of the Lord. 2 Chronicles 29:20

And they brought seven bullocks, and seven rams, and seven lambs, and seven he goats, for a sin offering

for the kingdom, and

for the sanctuary, and

for Judah.

No way to connect that to the modern church. The people's "congregation" was always excluded when the loud and horrible noise of HARD BONGAGE began.

Click for more: but you will never find the common Jews "worshipping" with music. It is not possible to get the 'musical' notion connected for spiritual worship in the entire Bible.

Walt from iBelieve.com forum refuting the clear teachings about music never a "spiritual worship word" in the entire Bible:

"Personally, I find no evidentiary reasoning that even suggests worshipping with the instrument was motivated by the desire to praise God"....clydson

Walt responds IN DEPTH:

Psalm 150
Praise the Lord!
Praise him in His mighty firmament!
Praise Him for His mighty acts;
praise Him according to His excellent greatness!
Praise Him with the sound of the trumpet;
Praise Him with the lute and harp!
praise Him with the timbrel and dance;
Praise Him with stringed instruments and flutes!
Praise Him with loud cymbals;
Praise Him with clashing cymbols!
Let everything that has breath praise the Lord.

Walt, further study would show that David is speaking poetically because poems tend to be poetic. Secondly, these instruments were NOT allowed even for animal sacrifice. The shofar was allowed to make a loud crashing sound while the lost Jews sacrificed thousands of types of Christ. This was in the court yard and singers and musicians were NEVER allowed in the Holy Place as a type of the church or body of Christ EVEN TO CLEAN OUT THE GARBAGE.

The flute or organ speaks of sexual love. Jubal was the father of the organ and HANDLING HARPS. The word "handle" means without warrant or authority from God. In Ezekiel 33 it is connected with treating God and Ezekiel as homosexual lovers.

Furthermore, David was not a congretional WORSHIP LEADER. The "people's congregation" was PUT OUT of the temple when the loud SOUNDS as the service of HARD BONDAGE began.

The allegorical sense is clear when the Psalmists said LET EVERYTHING THAT HATH BREATH praise God.

See more on Psalm 150 including the destructive names of instruments.

The Jews would attack Jesus as prophesied in Psalm 41 by music. However, when He won the battle He would use the instruments of God: the human lips and heart used allegorically.

Furthermore, the temple and worship "like the nations" was permitted only when Israel's elders fired God and demanded a nation and worship "like the nations." The prophets and Stephen make it clear that whatever you can see as "worship" after the beginning of the Monarchy was a return to their prayed-for Babylonian or Egyptian musical idolatry.

All but perhaps Psalm 33 connect instruments with some form of warfare or used in a judgmental sense. Most of the Psalms do not have instruments connected with them or could not be used in the COURT YARD of the bloody courtyard.

We should note that with perhaps one exception no one--even the inventors of the word trias or trinity ever thought of God as three separated beings. Indeed, this would always be considered heresy. John Mark hicks assigns Max Lucado and Rubel shelly the parenthood of this late view. However, it is a fact that H. Leo Boles and the Godpel promoted TRITHISM as early as 1942.

Tom from iBelieve.com teaches without rebuttal that God is a committee of three gods. This is much like the Family of God or neo-trinitarianism of Max Lucado and Rubel Shelly. John Mark Hicks acknowledges that they have pushed the INCARNATIONAL VIEW of three "family members" which clearly denies that CHRIST CAME FULLY IN THE FLESH. Maybe that is why no rebuttal is allowed.

In verse 28 the Holy Spirit shows us how all things work together resulting in good, for those who are called ones according to His purpose. In verse 29 the Holy Spirit now proceeds to explain how this calling of the saints (both OT and NT Saints) out from their lost estate came about. The first step God took was to "foreknow" them. Now I know that there is disagreement on what foreknowledge means but I will have to go on what I understand it to mean. The word is proginosko, which in its verb and noun forms is used seven times in the NT, two of those times of man where it means "previous knowledge based upon circumstances" (Acts 26:5, 2 Peter 3:17), and five of those times of God (acts 2:23, Ro. 8:29, 11:2, 1 Pet.1: 2, 20). In Acts 2:23 it is used in the statement "Him being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God." The words "determinate counsel" are the translation of a perfect participle and a noun.

Here is the statement where counsel gets interpreted as council or decision making family of God.

Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Acts 2:22

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Acts 2:23

This is not a council but the eternal purpose of the ONE GOD of the universe:

Boule (g1012) boo-lay'; from 1014; volition, i.e. (obj.) advice, or (by impl.) purpose: - / advise, counsel, will.

The council, however, is something ONE GOD does not do.

Sunedrion (g4892) soon-ed'-ree-on; neut of a presumed der. of a comp. of 4862 and the base of 1476; a joint session, i.e. (spec.) the Jewish Sanhedrim; by anal. a subordinate tribunal: - council.

God as the Spirit of Christ is personified in many ways: He was the Manna, the Water, The Rock and many other terms. As MESSIAH God (the Word) would send His ARM to intercede because no human could be mediator or intercessor:

And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him. Is.59:16

When I send my ARM into the medium of water where I do not reside my arm does not become another God.


The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.  2 Samuel 23:3 
---And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:4 (Christ ia always evident in the O.T.)


He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. Psalm 91:4 
---Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. Ephesians 6:16

God is my


And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; Luke 1:69

High Tower

Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. Ephesians 4:8


O Lord, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. Jeremiah 16:19


And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.  Matthew 1:21

My Rock

The Lord is (is One God but also in form of)

My Fortress and

My Deliverer  2 Samuel 22:2

Arm Isa 59:16

Samuel says that Jehovah is the Rock.

And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 1Co 10:2

And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 1Co 10:3

And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 1Co.10:4

Messiah is also the HORN but God does not have horns and if He did they would not be "gods."

And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; Lu.1:69

This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush. Ac.7:35

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Ro.11:26

Notice another trinity manifestation of the One Lord God.

The Spirit of the Lord (Jehovah) spoke by me, And His word (Dabar or Logos) was on my tongue. 2 Samuel 23:2

The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.  2 Samuel 23:3

In another passage we see five "beings" or "persons" speaking if we are inclined to ignore symbolic language:



Of the















enthroned in







Scoffs Psalm 2:4NIV

When God's ARM was working it was GOD working through human or physical means.

Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which

God did by him in the midst of you,

as ye yourselves also know: Acts 2:22

Jesus said that as SON He spoke only what He heard from the FATHER. Jesus also said that the FATHER and SPIRIT were with Him and in Him. The ONE God of the universe prepared a body in whom He would dwell as FULL DEITY. Jesus said "the flesh does not count, my words are SPIRIT and they are LIFE." Therefore, God was imaged or made manifest in the human body of a lowly Jewish man. Peter continues his sermon:

Him (Jesus the man), being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Acts 2:23

Whom (Jesus the man) God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. Acts 2:24


God as Full Deity is


Holy Spirit

When Jesus the Man died, His Spirit or God did not die. Therefore, the Spirit of Jesus as God raised up the Body which had served as Son.

Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. John 10:17

No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. John 10:18

In the garden of Eden it was sin which separated mankind from God. The only way to bring us back to God was for God Himself symbolized as His ARM to appear to mankind:

And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him. Is.59:16

A human person cannot bring you any closer to God than he presently is. Since there is an infinite "distance" between God and man, Only God as His "Arm" has the power to lead us into His presence.

For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 1Pe.3:18

> If ye love me, keep my commandments. John 14:15

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; John 14:16

> Jesus said that the Spirit was in Him and the new Comforter is "I"

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. John 14:17

I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. John 14:18

> Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. John 10:17

Tom from iBelieve.com: Here we have the Triune God in council convened, the purpose of which was to select out from the three Persons of the Godhead, the Lamb for sacrifice who would pay the penalty for man's sin.

The result of the deliberations was that the Son of God, was to die on Calvary's Cross. The word boule (counsel) is described by the perfect participle of horizo, "to mark out the boundaries or limits" of any place or thing, "to determine or appoint."

This verb tells us that these deliberations were for the purpose of determining something, and the fact that it is in the perfect tense shows that these deliberations had reached a successful conclusion and the counsel of the council was fixed and unchangeable.

But: Determinate counsel says nothing about a DELIBERATING council.

The word COUNSEL is what I do when I think about making a decision or advice I give or take from others:

Boule (g1012) boo-lay'; from 1014; volition, i.e. (obj.) advice, or (by impl.) purpose: - / advise, counsel, will.

And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. Luke 7:29

But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God [for] themselves, being not baptized of him. Luke 7:30

A COUNCIL is a meeting of several PEERS or men equal in authority.

Sunedrion (g4892) soon-ed'-ree-on; neut of a presumed der. of a comp. of 4862 and the base of 1476; a joint session, i.e. (spec.) the Jewish Sanhedrim; by anal. a subordinate tribunal: - council.

I don't know but Tom sounds like a Mormon:

"In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it....In all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods." Joseph Smith, (Founder and First Prophet), History of the Church, Vol 6, pp. 308,474.

"The universe is filled with vast numbers of intelligences, and we further learn that Elohim is God simply because all of these intelligences honor and sustain him as such...if He should ever do anything to violate the confidence or "sense of justice" of these intelligences, they would promptly withdraw their support, and the "power" of God would disintegrate. He would cease to be God." W. Cleon Skousen (Former BYU Professor & founder of Mormon-based National Center For Constitutional Studies), The First 2000 Years , p. 355. "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as mans," Doctrine and Covenants, 130:22. "If God possesses a form, that form is of necessity of definite proportions, and therefore of limited extension and space. It is impossible for Him to occupy at one time more than one space of such limits." James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith, page 43.


I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord (Jehovah), that I am God (Elohim). Is.43:12

See the proof that God says that He is ONE God.

God has no greater to swear by. How could He be God and have to get advice from other gods?

For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Heb.6:13

God's right hand will be "Yesha" or salvation and will be a "Him."

The Lord hath sworn by his right hand, and by the arm of his strength, Surely I will no more give thy corn to be meat for thine enemies; and the sons of the stranger shall not drink thy wine, for the which thou hast laboured: Isaiah 62:8

Behold, the Lord hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation (Yesha) cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. Isaiah 62:11

God made His OWN personal decision all by Himself:

But the Word was with God because He WAS God. Jehovah God (Jesus Saves) is never seen as three separated Gods. In the Old Testament we often have the statement that Jehovah the LORD is the one and only God or Elohim. Here is how the decision was made by the One Supreme Lord God about HIMSELF coming in the form of a human:

Don't just think about your own affairs, but be interested in others, too, and in what they are doing. Phi 2:4

Your attitude should be the kind that was shown us by Jesus Christ, Phil 2:5LIV

who, though he was God, did not demand and cling to his rights as God, Phil 2:6

but laid aside his mighty power and glory, taking the disguise of a slave and becoming like men.[a] a7 literally, "made in the likeness of men." Phil 2:7

And he humbled himself even further, going so far as actually to die a criminal's death on a cross.[b] b8 literally, "became obedient to death, even the death of the cross." Phil 2:8

Yet it was because of this that God raised him (Jesus) up to the heights of heaven and gave him a name which is above every other name, Phil 2:9

that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth, Phil 2:10

and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (Hebrew Jehovah), to the glory of God (Elohim) the Father. Phil 2:11

Christ as fully God and the Word or speaking role of God also raised His body through the Spirit Who was and Is God in the Spiritual realm.

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Col 2:8

For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Col 2:9

And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: Col 2:10

How do we get into Christ by Faith?

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:26

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Gal 3:27

How do we receive a spiritual circumcision.

In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Col 2:11

Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Col 2:12

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Col 2:13

The family of God as three members is a very young heresy: hatched in our own lifetime.

Perhaps because modern preachers claim to be THE LEADER or even an APOSTLE who is dominant with the old Biblica elders simply his shepherds. Of course, that means a body of yes men who can be cajoled or even threatned into endorsing whatever the preacher and STAFF (who replaces the deacons) tells them to endorse.

It should come as no surprise that one of the chief seed pickers on iBelieve.com identifies himself as ASLAN. In C. S. Lewis' mind, Aslan is the lion of the tribe of Judah. Lucy who is Lucifer rides on his back.

However, when Jesus came the first time the perverted Dionysus clergy who plagued Jerusalem tried to INITIATE Jesus to make Him sing and dance the Dionysus bowing to Baal while they piped. Jesus refused and therefore proved that He might be God's Messiah but He was not their expected Dionysus who supplied the music, sexuality and perverted sexuality in the temple as the first Abomination of Desolation. This was one of the reasons they literally empaled Him on a pole or tree.

ASLAN: the Lion of the Tribe of Judah? Lucy is Lucifer or Zoe: 5/20/03

God always MARKED those who were His enemies while the enemy thought of the MARK as a compliment. Therefore, people perverting the worship place and claiming to be "mediators between man and God" do us a great service by proudly wearing their mark as a badge.

In the end time, the false LION OF THE TRIBE OF JUDAH actually becomes the leader of the polluted worship with Lucifer riding on his back.

Home Page

Musical Worship Index

The Holy Spirit Index

Home... Apocalyptic... Apocryphal... Awakening... Baptism.....Caneridge... Church.... Colonial... Godhead.... MaxLucado... Lynn.Aderson... Musical Worship... Preaching... Restoration... RubelShelly... Search Our Site... Tongues... Topical...

Counter added 6.30.05 7:23a 1000

personal injury

Hit Counter