Willow Creek

McCartney envisioned a
NATIONAL SHEPHERDING NETWORK to deepen Promise Keeper's clout in local communities. I see every guy leaving out of [Stand in the Gap] and coming under the authority of a local shepherd. "This marks something of a change in PK's public approach, since they previously had avoided the use of the term "shepherding" due to its highly controversial association with cultlike practices by fringe churches in the charismatic movement. (Speaking on Pat Robertson's 700 Club a few days before the march)

Discipling and Shepherding Lynn Anderson      And #2

Max Lucado Shepherding

Rubel Shelly John York: Whole Life Discipleship

The Willow Creek Movement, Seeker-Services, Promise Keepers and many others survive only by adding national shepherding network forms of control and by controlling membership. This works only as people are directed away from Christ and His Word and toward some charismatic figure or control agent or performer. Enough time has elapsed between the Discipling Dilema or Charismatic Shepherding that groups are beginning to promote the idea openly.

Novensiles - Worshiping The God of Newness And The Winds of Change

The Machiavelli FAX of Life Resisting Change (From:Faith Matters)

I have added links to Machiavelli's Prince to assist you in understand the "Volkish" revival and the universal methods of change:

Machiavelli Prince Ch3-Ch6-Ch7

For comparison we will not some of Hitler's message about how to organize the "human" material (emotional) to be used by the elite (the rational) with music being important:

Hitler: Völkish State: Supporters (emotional) and Leaders (Intellectual)

Mein Kampf Vol 2, Ch5, Ch8, Ch11

For instance, the "men's movement" makes its appeal through the phallic religion of ancient paganism and modern phylosophy and everyone gets aroused and falls into line:

"It is Noll's thesis that Carl Jung created a select, elite group of spiritual initiates
        that would lead the rest of society to redemption.

Jung was influenced by Eugen Diederichs who "called for just such a spiritual aristocracy to lead" post-war Germany. (p. 87)

Diederichs also, believed that "being truly religious means being irrational" and that his calling as a publisher was to "push the irrationalist character of religion into the foreground"
and assist in creating "a
new mythos" or "mystique" (paradigm) for the spiritual reawakening of the Germanic peoples."

"Jung was also influenced by Count Hermann Keyserling and was a prominent lecturer at Keyserling's Schule der Weisheit (School of Wisdom) which taught yoga and other esoteric doctrines.

"Keyserling trained his metaphysically superior elite to lead the spiritual reawakening of the world.

His goal was "to develop sages from fragments of men" and to develop "the true leader of the future"...the metaphysically "chosen" agents of cultural change in the modern world. (Noll. p. 94The Jung Cult: Origins of a Charismatic Movement by Richard Noll (Princeton University Press, 1994)

This sounds like the ancient Zoe concept for the Women's Wine network,

In experential gnosticism (rather than revealed) when Sabaoth began to sing praises to Sophia and ZOE, they permitted him to have:

infinitely many angels to act as ministers, and
also harps and lyres.

And Sophia took her daughter Zoe and had her sit upon his right to teach him

THE ZOE - JUBILEE GOAL: "The goal of Zoe is to provide resources to help God's people improve in the discipline (Branch of knowledge or learning) of worship.

Through the prophetic word, music, arts, drama and the gifts of God given to His people in every age

THE VINEYARD - PROMISE KEEPERS GOAL: "Vineyard Pastor James Ryle claims that the Vineyard movement "spawned" Promise Keepers, In Hippo in the Garden (Creation House 1993, P. 53). Ryle had a dream and heard the Lord tell him:

"I am about to do a strange, new thing in My church. It will be like a man bringing a hippopotamus (pig) into his garden. Think about that." ( p.259)

God was telling him He was going to return "the power of His PROPHETIC WORD by His Holy Spirit into churches that no longer have any place for it." (p. 261)

Carrol D. Osburn on Women: The ACU Agenda: Train Prophetic roles, Channelers and Facilitators the method of subverting the 'hierarchial" views of Jesus and Paul is "Feminist hermeneutics stands over against patriarchal hermeneutics" its goal achieved "by small, often unnoticed acts of SUBVERSION. Numerous such incremental changes, like EROSION, will eventually bring down the FORTRESS " ( p. 32).

The shepherding movement or Discipling Movement has plagued the church of Christ in the form of the Cross Roads movement, the Boston Church of Christ, the International Church of Christ and now Willow Creek and Promise Keepers. The move of some churches into the stolen name of Community Churches promises some of the same thing.

Cross Roads Roots Revived in national shepherding network

You probably have a Promise Keepers agent in your church or on your payroll! n

"The last root of the shepherding movement, now promoted by Promise Keepers, as it has appeared among churches of Christ "is seen in the charismatic movement. This movement developed outside traditional denominational structures. Similar doctrines had been taught earlier in Pentecostal denominations such as the Assemblies of God, the Church of God, and the Pentecostal Holiness Church. As a model for the Crossroads movement (Boston Church, International Church of Christ) a new wine movement began in Florida:"

An 1975 article in Christianity Today discussed problems that followed in the wake of the new charismatic shepherding movement.

A dispute is taking place over issues of authority and discipleship. Powerful figures in the movement have built up a chain of command linking many local groups around the country to themselves. . . . Discipleship involves submission to the shepherd as he points the way-and

points out flaws in behavior. . . . Some travel to Ft. Lauderdale to receive training directly from Mumford and his colleagues. . . . Those being discipled must consult with their shepherd about many personal decisions. In some cases, shepherds forbid marriages, reject school and vocational plans, demand confession of secret sins. . .

The five Shepherds of Fort Lauderdale taught and practiced a style of leadership that they called "shepherding. " They used this term to describe attempts to control the private lives of their members. In 1972, shortly after they added the authoritarian tone to their teaching, Juan Carlos Ortiz came from Argentina to Fort Lauderdale.

His presentations in Fort Lauderdale had wide reception--including some from the churches of Christ. Ortiz taught the same thing as Watchman Nee about one congregation to a city. He also taught authoritarianism to the point that he said disciples should be told which individuals they should take home with them for meals.

The charismatic movement's oneness in the Spirit has been badly strained by a disagreement on the nature and

methods of discipleship training between Bob Mumford of Christian Growth Ministries, Fort Lauderdale, Florida, and a variety of charismatic VIPs....Mumford is charged with constructing an overly rigid, denomination-like hierarchy of "shepherds" whose spiritual authority over their charges is called a threat to . . . the interdenominational character of the charismatic movement itself.

Mumford denies wanting to form a new denomination, but his opponents so far haven't had ears to hear.

Bob Buess attributes many of these problems in the shepherding movement to the influence of Juan Carlos Ortiz. In his book Discipleship Pro and Con, he wrote, Juan Carlos Ortiz came from Argentina to America and is now traveling in various parts of the world spreading his version of discipleship. . . . The shepherd is treated like an earthly father would be treated. . . . In neo-discipleship groups there is absolute submission to the shepherd. Everyone is submitted in a regimented (army type) authoritarian chain of command. Someone is between you and God at all times.

In an earlier work, Buess had warned, "Some pastors and elders set themselves up as little 'Hitlers' over the flock. . . . Some even go so far as to demand submission to themselves rather than to the Lord. . . . You cannot make a decision for yourself."

Hitler: Völkish State: Supporters (emotional) and Leaders (Intellectual)
Rubel Shelly: The Machiavelli FAX of Life Resisting Change
---Machiavelli Prince Ch3- Ch6- Ch7
---Mein Kampf Vol 2, Ch5, Ch8, Ch11

Pat Robertson wrote an Open Letter to Bob Mumford on June 27, 1975, in which he complained about abuses associated with the discipleship-shepherd-submission teaching.

He mentioned indivIduals who submit to shepherds instead of becoming responsible church members. He mentioned those

who have little to say about Jesus
but much about their relationship and submission to their shepherd.

He told of a secretary at the Christian Broadcasting Network who had been turned into an emotional cripple by this movement. He said that she scarcely could type a letter without a long distance call to her shepherd. Robertson went on to tell about wealthy Christians being forced by their shepherds to reveal confidential details of their financial and family life.

He told of one individual who was warned that he would miss out on the Kingdom of God and be ruined spiritually, physically, and financially if he did not submit to the shepherd's authority. Finally,

Robertson quoted a key figure in the shepherding movement who said that if God spoke to him and he knew that it was God speaking, but his shepherd told him to do the opposite, he would obey his shepherd.14

The International Church of Christ Roots in national shepherding network
"The person who discipled me in the Lord is Kip McKean, the evangelist of the Boston Church. I want to be just like him. When he tells me things to do, you better believe I listen. And as I think back on the course of my relationships with Kip, I can tell you honestly, there are few times that I bucked Kip. And I can tell you honestly that I did wrong every time. It was not right to be arrogant, to be proud, to be rebellious... I want the guys who I am discipling to want to be like me."

"It would suit me just fine if I could leave this place and say you know - I just want to be exactly like Kip. I just want to be exactly like Kip. That would be enough."

I want to be able to imitate Kip McKean. I want to preach like him. I want to think like him. I want to talk like him." Cult Watch

Germans with their long memory of para-military groups are wary of para-church groups which often have political motives. Sometimes, it is not an individual with a Hitler or Jim Jones control power which depends upon force. For instance, the Willow Creek use of musical worship teams or praise teams depend upon placing the focus upon the theatrical performers. This is designed to take the focus off Christ and is in fact "the idolatry of talent."

Ulrich Eggers, a leading German evangelical who served as press spokesman at the Hamburg sessions, stresses that Willow Creek's "central message has nothing to do with drama or music,

but rather with the living portrayal of dedicated Christians." national shepherding network,

"Yet Eggers is worried that liberals may only accept the methodology and forms of this program. He says nothing can change "unless content is changed; the gospel must become a matter of the heart." Christianity Today

This data no longer exists. As a response to my request for information:

...unfortunately we don´t have the article that you refered to. Of course: this article dates back many many years. A lot of great things have happend since then due to Willow. In fact, this February we have the Leadership Summit from Willow over here. 11.000 folks have registered already for that. That so many pastors and church leaders come together to learn about biblical leadership in the church, is staggering for us.

Gotthard Westhoff Willow Creek Germany
Ursprüngliche Nachricht
Von: Kenneth Sublett [mailto:ksublett@piney.com]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 4. Januar 2005 05:09
An: info@willowcreek.de
Betreff: Christianity Today Article

Read The Empire Dies Screaming

Signs of Shepherding or Discipling
If you are under the control of any national or international group trying to steal the church you should be aware that these groups use stealth technology. Many cult-like groups believe that it is perfectly Scriptural to lie, deceive or with hold information in order to exercise control:

A cult will use deception. The cult will not normally tell people exactly what they believe, their origins, what they practice, and what life is really like in the cult, because if people knew they would not join. This information is taught to the new recruit slowly and in pieces - a "frog in the pot" tactic. Deception is a key pre-requisite to Mind Control. The cult must be willing to deceive people. The Bible teaches that Christians are not to use deception. Many cults know this and yet practice deception.

Leadership is feared. To disagree with leadership is to disagree with God. If the leaders tell you to do something, you had better do it. Often intense breaking sessions are employed to destroy any supposed rebellion or threat to the leadership. These sessions can involve many people at once attacking the character and motives of the target.

Those who control the information control the person. In a mind control cult any information from outside the cult is considered evil, especially if it is opposing the cult. Members are told not to read it or believe it. Only the cult-supplied information is true.

We have seen this at work in Seattle where the congregation was deceived about the purposes of changing the bylaws, were not permitted to read the old bylaws, were simply to endorse the new bylaws, and no contrary discussion was to be tolerated -- by order of feminine leadership -- while the hidden agenda was to introduce instrumental (idols) worship to aid the human idols violating the clear commands of the "doctrine" of Christ.

While the new models sell themselves as "liberal, loving and tolerant" history is clear that the more people rebel against the old, slow but spiritual New Testament model the more need there is for mind and body control.

Breaking Away: "Much apostasy from religion is strongly related to conflicts with one's parents. Many of those who think they are breaking away from their church in the name of enlightenment and freedom actually are at least partially working out conflicts with their mother and father. Andrew Greeley, Unsecular Man
Unfortunately, after all of the division and strife has died down the decadent and deliterious will still be there with no correction possible by a wrecking crew and the new paradigm will become the old, rigid pattern ready for the next crop ob baby boomers ready to spit in the face of mammy and pap:
Nothing is clearer in history than the adoption by successful rebels of the methods they were accustomed to condemn in the forces they deposed.
Will and Ariel Durant

Sectarianism Created at Willow Creek
Plato noted that many societies disparage women. However, because women were always the means of production in society and in pagan religions, it was important for males to project their leadership through women. However, Paul's:"doctrine" outlawed non-sedentary women because it always conveyed "sexual authority."

The monks understood the "spiritual" value of the female voice in their choirs and responsive teams. However, because women could not be clergy or musical praise leaders, they choose young boys and even castrated them to keep them "spiritual."

Performance has no relevance in a New Testament form of "worship" which met for the Lord's Supper, for prayer and reading of the Word. Since there were no performing roles (outlawed by Jesus) there was no big fights between male and female. Modern shepherding, discipling, praise or worship emphasis of course opens roles for "leadership" roles and the unity of the body is automatically destrofyed.

We suggest that you Click Here for this article. Also Click Here for other news about women leadership in the church.

"The following information is excerpted from the article "Femme Fatale: The Feminist (i.e. effeminate) Seduction of the Evangelical Church," World magazine, March 29, 1997 --

"The move [to inclusive language Bibles] fits with the trend toward egalitarianism--the denial of any distinctions between men and women--in the church and home. Egalitarians assert that women should be pastors, elders, and co-heads of families. Gilbert Bilezikian, professor emeritus at Wheaton College and author of Beyond Sex Roles, puts it bluntly:

"There cannot be authentic community as described in the New Testament without the full inclusion of the constituency of members into the ministry life and leadership of the group."

What the code message reveals any time a church claims to be all inclusive is that "we include you if you agree with us. If you do not agree to and subscribe to and defend the creed of the church you must look for another church" among the complimentaries if you are going to be a happy camper -- you will never be an Assimilated Member:

"Mr. Bilezikian is a founding elder and influential theologian at Bill Hybels's Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, Ill. Willow Creek's rapid growth and its influence on other evangelical churches through the 2,200-member Willow Creek Association makes its position on the issue important. Willow Creek has had women elders since its founding in 1978.

Apparently many of the "gossips and murmurers" or un-assimilated members had some problems with this if they knew Bible 101a. Therefore, what began as liberty in the beginning turned into a legalistic demand or you're outta here. In the same way, Promises to Keep always become Promises demanded (unless you are the head of the body):

"But in the past year the church has made explicit among its leaders the reasons for its position--and demanded a level of agreement from staff and prospective church members. In January 1996, John Ortberg, one of Willow Creek's teaching elders, taught a two-hour class

to church ministry leaders, in which he said that staff needed to share the convictions of the church, or study until they shared those convictions;
........... and they had a year to do so.

The seeker model of worship is not held during services for the included members. It, therefore, has another clear goal. It is not just to attract the secular, carnal world. It becomes a screening ground or initiation rite for prospective members. The test of fellowship is whether they can subscribe to the musical ministry with women preaching with a tune and affirm and joyfully sit under the teaching of women teachers without a tune.

1. If these new initiates subscribe to the non-Biblical worship ritual of ceremonial legalism, then they can take the pledge and become full-fledged members in good standing. Perhaps there is even a secret handclasp or certificate of completion.

2. Because the seeker service could not be implimented over the objections of those who bought the building,

if the scheme works during week days then the new recruits can fill the pews of those who flee to saner grounds.

3. The old objectors are gone, the new membership subscribes to the new effeminate form of ancient worship, and the collection plate keeps getting filled each worship service. The pulpit man and the Worship Facilitator Pastor Person have life tenure.

Rather than being a true seeker service where people with different views can dialog (not preach) the Word of God, the Willow Creek model demands conformity. "We seek you but you cannot seek further truth." This is often found in small groups more like a clan than the body of Christ.

"Mr. Ortberg's teaching became the basis for a draft position paper dated January 1996, which WORLD has obtained. The paper, which was
........... distributed only to Willow Creek's ministry leaders, national shepherding network,

says the church "has sought to insure an appropriate level of consensus on this issue with new staff members" to avoid an environment that "would be destructive to authentic community and effective ministry." The statement makes clear the church's belief that "when the Bible is interpreted comprehensively, it teaches the full equality of men and women in status, giftedness, and opportunity for ministry," despite "a few scriptural texts that appear to restrict the full ministry freedom of women."

The church Christ died to build without instruments and dance, insists upon acceptance of those with different opinions who do not divide the church. However, the choice of the name The Family of God opens the doors in many community churches to exclude those who do not take the cult-like pledge of blood brotherhood.

"What does Willow Creek mean by "appropriate level of consensus?" In practice, it means that complementarians are encouraged to look elsewhere for a church. As Dr. B--at is what Willow Creekers affectionately call Gilbert Bilezikian--explains,
........... "Anyone who is a member adheres to the statement of beliefs and practices of the church."

Being a baptized believer is not good enough. You might be a complimentarian or a non-assimilated member as in Promise Keepers (just a baptized believer) but other conditions are required to be an assimilated member. For one thing, you must joyfully sit under women as teachers and pledge to do so:

"Dick Carr had attended Willow Creek since 1992. "I came to Christ there, was baptized there, married there," he says fondly. That's why Mr. Carr's dissent over the women-in-leadership position is painful for him to talk about; he still loves the church.

But last year, when Mr. Carr decided to join the church, he ran into difficulties. An appendix of the membership book "threw up red flags for me."

Apparently a man baptized in the church and married there was assigned to a division leader--perhaps for shepherding--who shepherded him into the new creed of the church:

"Mr. Carr asked his division leader, who told him to read Dr. B's Beyond Sex Roles. That raised even more questions. He read a complementarian book, Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, by John Piper and Wayne Grudem, which made sense to him. But when Mr. Carr recommended the book be carried by the Willow Creek bookstore, he says the bookstore manager told him "it was deemed not appropriate." (I.e. cenored)

The division leader, however, was not the final authority up the rungs of the heirarchy:

Mr. Carr went back to his division leader, who referred him to a female elder who is the author of a paper called "Elders' Response to the Most Frequently Asked Questions About Membership at Willow Creek." In that document, volunteer membership coaches are told,

"We ask that Participating Members of Willow Creek minimally be able to affirm and joyfully sit under the teaching of women teachers ... that they can joyfully submit to the leadership of women in various leadership positions at Willow Creek."

Too bad, too sad but we have improved on the gospel Jesus taught:

A letter from Mr. Bilezikian to Mr. Carr confirmed the church's position: "I commend you for wanting to serve with integrity in a church that is compatible with your view.

Obviously Willow Creek is not that place." At that point Mr. Carr gave up the idea of membership.

Willow Creek teacher Mr. Ortberg says the need for agreement is an "issue of integrity" But complementarian Wayne Grudem uses no euphemisms in his analysis of the Willow Creek position:
........... "The way an egalitarian view triumphs is by a suppression of information and discussion."

As I read this statement I was struck by a paragraph in a disgusting paramilitary diary which reads:

Each worker receives ten hours of lectures each week, and he is graded not only on his general attitude toward his work and on his productivity but also on his responsiveness to these lectures.

The paramilitary department of education had the responsibility of social rehabilitation. Typically, you cannot have an organization larger than the local congregation without strict, military-like laws:

The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) has 2,419 female leaders. In 1979 the United Presbyterian Church, forerunner of the Presbyterian Church U.S.A., adopted a resolution REQUIRING the congregations to elect women elders. This politically correct denomination also

"voted to ban the ordination of any man who opposed women clergy and gave such men 10 years to change their minds or get out (EP News Service, June 21, 1980).

If everyone in a para-military group agrees with the leader then this gives the leader credibility. People say, "If they had a problem with it then surely they have a right to agree to change it. The fact that they do not mean that they are a united church." The way to get 100% agreement is to make them agree or encourage them to get out.

"Willow Creek makes explicit the connection between the egalitarian position on women's roles and Bible translations. The January 1996 statement on sex roles states that Willow Creek is committed to "encourage the use of translations of Scripture that accurately portray God's will that His church be an inclusive community." ("Femme Fatale: The Feminist Seduction of the Evangelical Church," World magazine, March 29, 1997)

If this is true then it is just too bad that God didn't throttle the apostle Paul in his mother's womb!

Sectarianism at Promise Keepers With the Shepherding - Discipling Movement
To read an explanation of the charismatic manipulation which occured at Promise Keepers in Atlanta Click Here. Anyone who can be broken down by "football-fan" techniques probably does not have the emotional stability to resist the claim that God is working in a new way. History is clear that those who fell under the spell of charismatic people probably do need a masculine journey.

However, you can use the "Arena" method of big, loud and exciting a few times until the stimulation wears a raw spot. Therefore, it was predictable that the movement would mole its way into already-existing and paid for churches. The method, therefore, must fall back upon the shepherding gimmick to exercise control and keep everyone from thinking too much. A recent, personal experience allows me to speak with some knowledge.

Like all mass movements which are like ballons blown up often with hot air, there must be rigid mind control to make sure that someone does not stick a pin in the whole things. For instance, of the Promise Keepers which promotes the same level of female leadership as Willow Creek and the co-ministry in the International Church of Christ. Most deception follows a "bait and switch" scheme. For instance, "We are just for males to dialog their sexual problems, beat drums, go insane at mind-control Coached meetings and go home to take the command rulership over their wives."

Now, a lot of men who are not able to exercise spiritual leadership would like a pointy ox-goad or something to whip their wives into line. However, that was the "bait" and the "switch" used to infiltrate your church like a warrior and take control over your flock. The shepherding leader they pay will move you into a super-denomination before we go political.:

"McCartney also announced that PK will begin shifting its emphasis more toward deepening its ties with local churches, which have already become vulnerable to manipulation by the more than
........... 20,000 small accountability groups which PK calls "the backbone" of the organization.

Promise Keepers claims to have the interest or involvement of 105,000 congregations across the country (about a third of the total), and at the rally McCartney challenged local pastors
........... to meet once a week in small shepherding groups, which
........... ........... are to be networked with other shepherding groups by PK.

Should PK gain control of the citywide networks of shepherds they see coming out of this arrangement, they would tighten their political grip on church networks in the major metropolitan centers of the country.

"This marks something of a change in PK's public approach, since they previously had avoided the use of the term "shepherding" due to its highly controversial association with cultlike practices by fringe churches in the charismatic movement. Speaking on Pat Robertson's 700 Club a few days before the march,

"McCartney envisioned a national shepherding network to deepen PK's clout in local communities. "I see every guy leaving out of [Stand in the Gap] and coming under the authority of a local shepherd. (not elders)

And then I see the shepherds networking... When we ... come under the authority of a local shepherd, and if the shepherd is networked ... that's gonna impact that community." He reaffirmed this in his speech at the rally, where he told the men that

"nobody can go home without the same plan ... We propose that every man returns home and submits to the authority of a local shepherd." PK claims to have trained more than 120,000 men since 1996 to lead these groups. (A local shepherd is the PK approved and even paid shepherd to ride herd over the New Testament-like elders).

McCartney stated that in order to create a "unity of command," networked pastors are obliged to attend one of nine conferences organized by the PK leadership.

See PK and Holy Laughter national shepherding network, national shepherding network,
See Unscriptural Plan of Salvation national shepherding network, national shepherding network,

The Way To Unity
James Madison wrote that: national shepherding network,

"There are two methods of curing the mischiefs of faction: the one, by removing its causes; the other, controlling its effects.
"Again, there are two methods of removing the cause of faction: the one,

by destroying the liberty which is essential to its existence;
the other, by
giving to every citizen the same opinions, the same passions, and the same interests.

"It could never be more truly said that of the first remedy that it was worse than the disease. Liberty is to faction what air is to fire, an aliment without which it instantly expires. But it could not be a less folly to abolish liberty, which is essential to political life, because it nourishes faction than it would be to wish the annihilation of air, which is essential to animal life, because it imports to fire its destructive agency.

"The second expedient is as impracticable as the first would be unwise. As long as the reason of man continues fallible, and he is at liberty to exercise it, different opinions will be formed." (James Madison, Number Ten, The Federalist Papers)

Rubel Shelly's authority for why change comes so slow is Machiavelli who suppliments James Madison. When Machiavelli is your "proof-texts" we ask: "Can you can just kill the non-assimilated members?"

Shepherding Control Agents trained by Promise Keepers deprives the church of liberty because it includes those who subscribe to its non-Biblical theology and excludes as non-assimilated members those who do not.

We have no power to tell people what they can or cannot do, but when a group makes such a stink and spends so much money promoting Bible-starved "lectures" embarassing "worship teams" around the Asherah poles, the drums (tabrets from Topheth) and wind instruments (Halal meaning play the flute, pollute or prostitute) get everyone into the hand waving mood, we have a right to say that their Bible Base is built on sand and the "water of the word" has been replaced with new wine. This is why watching it on the screen lights up the room with embarassment even as God must be lighting up the heavens.

Promise Keepers and Phallicism national shepherding network, national shepherding network, national shepherding network,

See other's comments on the Prayer Circle or Study Circle as a shepherding method.

Check ZOE GROUP Promotional Support. national shepherding network, national shepherding netw

Home Page

Counter added 11/16/04 10208  2.03.10 16581 11.10.14 17613

<img src="http://www.piney.com/cgi-bin/Count.cgi?df=piney/counter_WinWill3.html.dat">