The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist? No

The Early Christians Believed in the Real Presence? No. Bill don't trust those guys who "stand in the holy place claiming to be God or His representative."

E-Mail: When you say REPRESENTS you are not discerning the Body of Christ. You are "wresting the Scriptures to your own destruction".

Bill, I thought that you might like to see how a priest compares with Nimrod as an Egyptian priest. The one on the left is from the site you recommend. We don't let no preachers dress up like that!

From The Two Babylons on The Great Red Dragon. Look to see the Catholic Encyclopedia on 'Candles" and see how it is confessed that many things were adopted from idolatrous paganism to aggrandize Catholicism.

Eating literal fles and drinking literal blood is an ancient lust:

When "the fruit of the body" was thus offered, it was "for the sin of the soul." And it was a principle of the Mosaic law, a principle no doubt derived from the patriarchal faith, that the priest must partake of whatever was offered as a sin-offering (Num 18:9,10).

Hence, the priests of Nimrod or Baal were necessarily required to eat of the human sacrifices; and thus it has come to pass that "Cahna-Bal," * the "Priest of Baal," is the established word in our own tongue for a devourer of human flesh. **

* The word Cahna is the emphatic form of Cahn. Cahn is "a priest," Cahna is "the priest."

** From the historian Castor (in Armenian translation of EUSEBIUS) we learn that it was under Bel, or Belus, that is Baal, that the Cyclops lived; and the Scholiast on Aeschylus states that these Cyclops were the brethren of Kronos, who was also Bel or Bal, as we have elsewhere seen.

The eye in their forehead shows that originally this name was a name of the great god; for that eye in India and Greece is found the characteristic of the supreme divinity. The Cyclops, then, had been representatives of that God--in other words, priests, and priests of Bel or Bal. Now, we find that the Cyclops were well-known as cannibals, Referre ritus Cyclopum, "to bring back the rites of the Cyclops," meaning to revive the practice of eating human flesh. (OVID, Metam.)

This explains why you cannot drink the literal blood of your literal god or sacrifice: you are not a priest.


Bill links to a site which only partially quotes Clement of Alexandria in Stromata I and II:

"The Blood of the Lord, indeed, is twofold. There is His corporeal Blood, by which we are redeemed from corruption; and His spiritual Blood, that with which we are anointed. That is to say, to drink the Blood of Jesus is to share in His immortality. The strength of the Word is the Spirit just as the blood is the strength of the body. Similarly, as wine is blended with water, so is the Spirit with man. The one, the Watered Wine, nourishes in faith, while the other, the Spirit, leads us on to immortality. The union of both, however, - of the drink and of the Word, - is called the Eucharist, a praiseworthy and excellent gift. Those who partake of it in faith are sanctified in body and in soul. By the will of the Father, the divine mixture, man, is mystically united to the Spirit and to the Word.",

William Dale a la Carte wrote:

Obey the Gospel. Rejoice in the GOOD NEWS: God is wih us. OBEY THE GOSPEL.

I don't believe that even the proof text helps the real presence case much:

THE TRUTH From Clement Pedagogue II

Bill, your priest like all mercinaries cannot resist half-truth. But a half truth is a whole lie. Now, just look at the "context" outside of the prooftext. Let's back up a bit to see if the word "REPRESENTS" can send you to hell. If Clement does not say what the priest says then the priest is a false prophet. That is why God came to be His Own Teacher and cannot tolerate any self-appointed mediators of His Word. Jesus died to set you free from the burden of those who "take away the key to knowledge."

I don't have time to look at all of your proof-texts. However, let's just look at one. If your clergy source is wrong on this one then he isn't interested in truth. He is just following the almost universal scam of picking off proof-text to make his point knowing that within context he is not telling you the thruth. Sad fact is they most clergy couldn't care less.

Chapter II.-On Drinking.

"Use a little wine," says the apostle to Timothy, who drank water, "for thy stomach's sake; " most properly applying its aid as a strengthening tonic suitable to a sickly body enfeebled with watery humours; and specifying "a little," lest the remedy should, on account of its quantity, unobserved, create the necessity of other treatment.

The natural, temperate, and necessary beverage, therefore, for the thirsty is water. This was the simple drink of sobriety, which, flowing from the smitten rock, was supplied by the Lord to the ancient Hebrews. It was most requisite that in their wanderings they should be temperate.

Afterwards the sacred vine produced the prophetic cluster. This was a sign to them, when trained from wandering to their rest; representing the great cluster the Word, bruised for us.

For the blood of the grape-

that is, the Word-desired to be mixed with water,

as His blood is mingled with salvation

[As means "represents." Therefore, say "represents", Bill]

The fruit of the vine is Christ's literal blood or it represents His blood. Don't let the fellows lie to you about it being mystical, literal blood. Steal some of it and take it to the Lab. If it doesn't have the Lord's DNA in it then your are still being sold indulgencies. Worship in spirit and in truth doesn't have any mystical rituals which the priest must perform for you. He is just "seeing godliness as a means of financial gain" and God will judge him sooner than later.

Now, here in the middle is the quoted prooftext:

And the blood of the Lord is twofold. For there is the blood of His flesh, by which we are redeemed from corruption;

and the spiritual, that by which we are anointed. And to drink the blood of Jesus, is to become partaker of the Lord's immortality;

the Spirit being the energetic principle of the Word,

as blood is of flesh. [As means "represents". Therefore, say "represents."]

Accordingly, as wine is blended with water, so is the Spirit with man.

And the one, the mixture of wine and water, nourishes to faith;

while the other, the Spirit, conducts to immortality.

And the mixture of both-of the water and of the Word-is called Eucharist, renowned and glorious grace; and they who by faith partake of it are sanctified both in body and soul. For the divine mixture, man, the Father's will has mystically compounded by the Spirit and the Word.

For, in truth, the spirit is joined to the soul, which is inspired by it; and the flesh, by reason of which the Word became flesh, [is joined to] to the Word.

Jesus always spoke parables to fool the priestly cast of Judaism who had lost all feeling for spiritual things. Therefore, just like the pagans, Jesus spoke to them of "eating and drinking the gods." The apostles were confused so He spoke only to those with two good ears and told them that eating His flesh and drinking His blood was eating and drinking His WORD.

What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? John 6:62

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63

I know, Bill, the Douay has a long footnote which says that "flesh is literal flesh" but "my flesh counts for nothing" doesn't mean what Jesus said it means.

THE Other BIG LIE about Clement

"The Word is everything to a child: both Father and Mother, both Instructor and Nurse. 'Eat My Flesh,' He says, 'and drink My Blood.' The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients. He delivers over His Flesh, and pours out His Blood; and nothing is lacking for the growth of His children. O incredible mystery!",

-"The Instructor of the Children" [1,6,41,3] ante 202 A.D.. ,


And calling her children to her, she nurses them with holy milk, viz., with the Word for childhood. Therefore she had not milk; for the milk was this child fair and comely, the body of Christ, which nourishes by the Word the young brood, which the Lord Himself brought forth in throes of the flesh, which the Lord Himself swathed in His precious blood.

O amazing birth! O holy swaddling bands! The Word is all to the child, both father and mother and tutor and nurse. "Eat ye my flesh," He says, "and drink my blood." John vi. 53,54.

Such is the suitable food which the Lord ministers, and He offers His flesh and pours forth His blood, and nothing is wanting for the children's growth.

O amazing mystery l We are enjoined to cast off the old and carnal corruption, as also the old nutriment, receiving in exchange another new regimen, that of Christ, receiving Him if we can, to hide Him within; and that, enshrining the Saviour in our souls, we may correct the affections of our flesh.

But you are not inclined to understand it thus, but perchance more generally.

Hear it also in the following way. The flesh figuratively represents to us the Holy Spirit; for the flesh was created by Him.

The blood points out to us the Word, for as rich blood the Word has been infused into life; and the union of both is the Lord, the food of the babes-

the (1) Lord who is (2) Spirit and (3) Word.

The Blessed Trinity, Bill: None of the church Fathers who believed that they belonged to the church of Christ ever accepted the Babylonian Triad or trinity of God "persons." There are not three gods but one and all of the "fathers" clearly understood that as our spirit is not separated from our body or word, the Spirit Of christ was never separated from Christ. There is only one name for "father, son and spirit" and His name is Joshua, Jesus or Jehovah-Saves. The same God who was the Creator of all things. Therefore, Bill take this from Clement that only rank pagans thought of ever worshiping God in three "persons."

When Israel engaged in musical idolatry at Mount Sinai God turned them over to worship the starry host. Remphen or Saturn was the "star" or planet of interest. His star is the star of David and the star of Israel. It has six sides, six angles and six points. That is 666. It was the mark of ancient sun worship and the universal of the Babylonian trinity adopted by Rome. Whey you say "trinity," Bill just say "marked."

But our Instructor is the (1) holy God Jesus, the (2) Word, who is the guide of all humanity. The loving (3) God Himself is our Instructor. The Lord alone led them, and there was no strange god with them." [Deut. xxxii. 10-12.] Clearly, I trow, has the Scripture exhibited the Instructor in the account it gives of His guidance.

Again, when He speaks in His own person, He confesses Himself to be the Instructor: "I (1) am the(2) Lord thy (3) God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt." [ Ex. xx. 2.] Who, then, has the power of leading in and out? Is it not the Instructor? This was He who appeared to Abraham, and said to him, "I am thy God, be accepted before Me; " [Gen. xvii. 1,2] and in a way most befitting an instructor, forms him into a faithful child, saying, "And be blameless; and I will make My covenant between Me and thee, and try seed."

And we who are little ones being such colts, are reared up by our divine colt-tamer. But if the new man in Scripture is represented by the ass, this ass is also a colt. "And he bound," it is said, "the colt to the vine," having bound this simple and childlike people to the word, whom He figuratively represents as a vine.

For the vine produces wine, as the Word produces blood, and both drink for health to men-wine for the body, blood [word] for the spirit.

Elsewhere the Lord, in the Gospel according to John, brought this out by symbols, when He said: "Eat ye my flesh, and drink my blood; " John vi. 34.

describing distinctly by metaphor the drinkable properties of faith and the promise, by means of which the Church, like a human being consisting of many members, is refreshed and grows, is welded together and compacted of both,-of faith, which is the body, and of hope, which is the soul; as also the Lord of flesh and blood.

For in reality the blood of faith is hope, in which faith is held as by a vital principle. And when hope expires,

it is as if blood flowed forth; and the vitality of faith is destroyed.

Here is to be noted the mystery of the bread, in as much as He speaks of it as flesh, and as flesh, consequently, that has risen through fire, as the wheat springs up from decay and germination; and, in truth, it has risen through fire for the joy of the Church, as bread baked. But this will be shown by and by more clearly in the chapter on the resurrection.

But since He said, "And the bread which I will give is My flesh," and since flesh is moistened with blood, and blood is figuratively termed wine,

[Don't listen to priests, Bill. Get the point? Bread and wine go together; flesh and blood are not suitable unless your priest is a cannibal]

we are bidden to know that, as bread, crumbled into a mixture of wine and water, seizes on the wine and leaves the watery portion,

so also the flesh of Christ, the bread of heaven absorbs the blood; that is, those among men who are heavenly, nourishing them up to immortality, and leaving only to destruction the lusts of the flesh.

Thus in many ways the Word is figuratively described, as meat, and flesh, and food, and bread, and blood, and milk. The Lord is all these, to give enjoyment to us who have believed on Him. Let no one then think it strange, when we say that the Lord's blood is figuratively represented as milk.

For is it not figuratively represented as wine? "Who washes," it is said, "His garment in wine, His robe in the blood of the grape." Gen. xlix. 11.

In His Own Spirit He says He will deck the body of the Word; as certainly by His own Spirit He will nourish those who hunger for the Word.

[FIGURATIVELY means "represents." Therefore, say "represents", Bill]

Thus ends the proof text from Clement: show me anything the Catholic claims from the early writings of the Church of Christ and I will show you where they deliberately distort.

When you say REPRESENTS you are not discerning the Body of Christ. You are "wresting the Scriptures to your own destruction".

We are too soon old and too late smart!

Why doesn't your "christ" turn meat, flesh, food, bread and milk into the LITERAL JESUS. Next thing these wise people will want to make a literal DOOR. And the door can turn on the "hinges", you know, those pretend red-headed birds to accompany the Fish-Headed Dagan?

Clement in Stromata I observes that individuals eat and drink the Lord's Supper. For the priest to claim that the "commoners" are unworthy shows how "drinking the gods" can lead to denying people the right to communion in any sense of the word.

Our mouth is opened to you." [2 Cor. vi. 4, 10, 11.] "I charge thee," he says, writing to Timothy, "before God, and Christ Jesus, and the elect angels,

that thou observe these things, without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality." [2 Cor. vi. 4, 10, 11]

Both must therefore test themselves:

the one, if he is qualified to speak and leave behind him written records;

the other, if he is in a right state to hear and read:

as also some in the dispensation of the Eucharist, according to custom enjoin that each one of the people individually should take his part.

One's own conscience is best for choosing accurately or shunning.

And its firm foundation is a right life, with suitable instruction. But the imitation of those who have already been proved, and who have led correct lives, is most excellent for the understanding and practice of the commandments.

"So that whosoever shall eat the bread and drink the cup of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup." [1 Cor. xi. 27, 28.]

That is still the practice in the Church of Christ.

Clement of Rome. Irenaeus of Lyon lists him as a contemporary and witness of the Apostles. He had a primary role in Rome from 92 to 101 and may be the Clement mentioned in Phil. 4:3.


St. Clement was the third successor of Peter as Bishop of Rome; otherwise known as the third Pope.

"Since then these things are manifest to us, and we have looked into the depths of the divine knowledge, we ought to do in order all things which the Master commanded us to perform at appointed times. He commanded us to celebrate sacrifices and services, and that it should not be thoughtlessly or disorderly, but at fixed times and hours. He has Himself fixed by His supreme will the places and persons whom He desires for these celebrations, in order that all things may be done piously according to His good pleasure, and be acceptable to His will. So then those who offer their oblations at the appointed seasons are acceptable and blessed, but they follow the laws of the Master and do not sin. For to the high priest his proper ministrations are allotted, and to the priests the proper place has been appointed, and on Levites their proper services have been imposed. The layman is bound by the ordinances for the laity."

Source: St. Clement, bishop of Rome, 80 A.D., to the Corinthians

The people in Corinth, like the people in Rome, did not listen to and honor their elders or shepherds over their own individual flocks. Clement had the same problem with disrespect for those who offered up their lives in order to preach the gospel and set up churches under local elders:

Chapter III.-The Sad State of the Corinthian Church After Sedition Arose in It from Envy and Emulation.

Every kind of honour and happiness was bestowed upon you, and then was fulfilled that which is written, "My beloved did eat and drink, and was enlarged and became fat, and kicked."Hence flowed emulation and envy, strife and sedition, persecution and disorder, war and captivity. So the worthless rose up against the honoured, those of no reputation against such as were renowned, the foolish against the wise, the young against those advanced in years. For this reason righteousness and peace are now far departed from you, inasmuch as every one abandons the fear of God, and is become blind in His faith, neither walks in the ordinances of His appointment, nor acts a part becoming a Christian, but walks after his own wicked lusts, resuming the practice of an unrighteous and ungodly envy, by which death itself entered into the world.

Chapter VII.-An Exhortation to Repentance.

These things, beloved, we write unto you, not merely to admonish you of your duty, but also to remind ourselves. For we are struggling on the same arena, and the same conflict is assigned to both of us. Wherefore let us give up vain and fruitless cares, and approach to the glorious and venerable rule of our holy calling. Let us attend to what is good, pleasing, and acceptable in the sight of Him who formed us.

Let us look stedfastly to the blood of Christ, and see how precious that blood is to God,

which, having been shed for our salvation,

has set the grace of repentance before the whole world.

Let us turn to every age that has passed, and learn that, from generation to generation, the Lord has granted a place of repentance to all such as would be converted unto Him. Noah preached repentance, and as many as listened to him were saved. Jonah proclaimed destruction to the Ninevites;

but they, repenting of their sins, propitiated God by prayer, and obtained salvation, although they were aliens [to the covenant] of God.

This is what Peter told baptized believers:

Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. Act 8:13

When Simon sought to buy the gift of miracles, Peter told Simon, Clement and us how to obtain forgiveness after being baptized and sinning.

Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. Acts 8:22

Chapter XL.-Let Us Preserve in the Church the Order Appointed by God.

These things therefore being manifest to us, and since we look into the depths of the divine knowledge, it behoves us to do all things in [their proper] order, which the Lord has commanded us to perform at stated times.

The only command Clement alludes to is the one-time collection for the poor:

But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Cor 15:57

Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, alway abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord. 1 Cor 15:58

Here is the "proof text" for the Real Presence of the Bood in the

Clement still uses the order under the Law of Moses to show that respecting authority had not been done away just because of Christian liberty.


He has enjoined offerings [to be presented] and service to be performed [to Him], and that not thoughtlessly or irregularly, but at the appointed times and hours. Where and by whom He desires these things to be done, He Himself has fixed by His own supreme will, in order that all things being piously done according to His good pleasure, may be acceptable unto Him. [Comp. Rom. xv. 15, 16, Greek.] Those, therefore, who present their offerings at the appointed times, are accepted and blessed; for inasmuch as they follow the laws of the Lord, they sin not. For his own peculiar services are assigned to the high priest, and their own proper place is prescribed to the priests, and their own special ministrations devolve on the Levites. The layman is bound by the laws that pertain to laymen.

Chapter XLI.-Continuation of the Same Subject.

Let every one of you, brethren, give thanks to God in his own order, living in all good conscience, with becoming gravity, and not going beyond the rule of the ministry prescribed to him. Not in every place, brethren, are the daily sacrifices offered, or the peace-offerings, or the sin-offerings and the trespass-offerings, but in Jerusalem only. And even there they are not offered in any place, but only at the altar before the temple, that which is offered being first carefully examined by the high priest and the ministers already mentioned. Those, therefore, who do anything beyond that which is agreeable to His will, are punished with death. Ye see, brethren, that the greater the knowledge that has been vouchsafed to us, the greater also is the danger to which we are exposed.

The Britannical notes:

"Wherein he also followed the example of the first pastor of the Church, that is, of the most blessed Peter, chief of the Apostles, who, having founded the Church of Christ at Rome, is said to have consecrated Clement to help him in preaching the Gospel, and at the same time to be his successor. From

Clement does not speak of eating flesh and drinking blood. Rather, the blood was shed just one time. Those who believe and are baptized receive the benefit of the blood just one time through a direct act. However, Clement follows Peter by saying that the value of the blood continues to be available. That way is not through the Eucharist but by the person who sins repenting and praying that the blood cover their sins.

You see, Peter was following the command of Jesus to "go preach the gospel." He did not tell him: "Go to Rome and become Pope." Since there was no such thing for several hundred years, Clement was a preacher in the church of Christ which was also "universal" but congregational.

Since Peter was a preacher of the gospel, when Clement succeeded him it was as the primary preacher of the gospel in the church of Christ in Rome.

Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you. Romans 16:16

THE CHURCH did not exist as a secular kingdom. Therefore, the greetings were not from Saint Peters but from all of the various churches of Christ meeting in and around Rome.

Bill, the church of Christ is still about the only place where you can eat the Lord's Supper, bread and juice, without having to pass judgment and do it each first day of the Week. It is the only church which has the same one used in Rome and of Clement of Rome

And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. Acts 20:7

Almost none of the quoted "proof texts" from the church of Christ fathers spoke of literal flesh and blood in the Lord's Supper. And no early writers are quoted who do. Therefore, the "flesh and blood" or literal presence is a late addition. Again, I suggest that you go to the Catholic Encyclopedia under Candles and see the confession that many ideas were borrowed from "no cult in particular" but elements "common to all paganism." They confess it and claim authority. Therefore, it is fruitless to argue Catholic dogma from even the Douay version.

No, Bill. Just read your Bible. When you trust anyone to be your father or "authoratative teacher" God will just close your eyes and plug your ears because you don't worship God by seeking and inquiring of Him through the Word. Being a "professional" Christian marks one as not to be trusted. Jesus died to fire them: get with it Bill, it may not be too late to get smart.


The Church Index

Home Page