Grace Centered Forum

Mere Nick and Norton Attack and Concerned Members based on false premises and rejecting the Word, Logos or Regulative Principle. Sorry, but I don't do dialogs in a few words: Paul dialoged with the people until midnight.

You may comment without being muzzled here.

Mere Nick (Masked Man)  I was trying to get a straight answer from Kenneth Sublett about what he thought should and shouldn't happen with the church meets.  It appears that he was of the view that there should be no preaching or singing.  Does that sum it up?

Mere Nick wants a yes or no answer but I posted what God who breathed as the Spirit OF Christ had Isaiah say. The Spirit of Christ spoke in long messages and Paul said that those who were not converted or baptized into Christ could not READ the Word nor HEAR it when the command to PREACH it by READING it took place.


Luke 18:31 Then he took unto him the TWELVE, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem,
        and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

Jesus defines "Holy Scripture" as the Prophets and other prophecies concerning HIM.

Eph. 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph. 2:20 And are built upon [EDUCATED] the foundation of the apostles and prophets,
        Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

That IS the Regulative Principle!!!

Luke 18:32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles,
        and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:

Paizo dance, play a game,  4. play on a musical instrument, h.Ap.206: c. acc., Pan ho kalamo phthongapaizôn [played on a reed] Ar.Ra.230 ; dance and sing, Pi. O.1.16. 5. play amorously, prosallêlous X.Smp.9.2 

Xen. Sym. 9.2 “Gentlemen, Ariadne will now enter the chamber set apart for her and Dionysus; after that, Dionysus, a little flushed with wine drunk at a banquet of the gods, will come to join her; and then they will disport themselves together.”
Xen. Sym. 9.3 Then, to start proceedings, in came Ariadne, apparelled as a bride, and took her seat in the chair. Dionysus being still invisible, there was heard the Bacchic music played on a flute. Then it was that the assemblage was filled with admiration of the dancing master. For as soon as Ariadne heard the strain, her action was such that every one might have perceived her joy at the sound; and although she did not go to meet Dionysus, nor even rise, yet it was clear that she kept her composure with difficulty.

5195. hubrizo, hoo-brid´-zo; from 5196; to exercise violence, i.e. abuse: — use despitefully, reproach, entreat shamefully (spitefully).

5196. u¢briß hubris, hoo´-bris; from 5228; insolence (as over-bearing), i.e. insult, injury: — harm, hurt, reproach.
herpeton   II.creeping thing, reptile, esp. snake, kinad-os , eos, hence, cunning rogue, dog, catamite.
 epi-triptos    thērion, psōmo-kolax , a^kos, ho, A.flatterer for morsels of bread, parasite
        2. nun e. kai kateaguia mousikē the disreputable and effeminatemusic of to-day, oulomenos
                II.ruined, lost: hence, unhappy, wretched: pharmakon preachers, singers,
                instrument players SORCERERS to be cast alive int the lake of fire.
thērion The Beast is a new style of music or drama including satyric dramas. THE MARK of the  beast is to PLAY or mock Jesus
Serpo  II. Trop., to creep, crawl; to extend gradually or imperceptibly; to spread abroad, increase, prevail (a favorite trope of Cic.): occulto
Of a low, grovelling poetic style: “(poëta) Serpit humi tutus,crawls along the earth, Hor. A. P. 28 (cf.: “sermones Repentes per humum,
sapor,Verg. G. 3, 397: b. Of persons, close, reserved, secret, not opendissembling his hate,

canam, qui leniter ... placidis per vada serpis aquis,creepest, windest along,
occŭlo (obc- ) In partic., to cover up, hide, conceal
puncta argumentorum,Cic. de Or. 2, 41, 77: “narratum ab iis,to keep secret, conceal, Tac. A. 3, 16:
occulta conjurationis retexere,id. ib. 15, 74: “occulta cordis,Vulg. 1 Cor. 14, 25:
Săpor , 1. Of style: “vernaculus,” i.e. taste, elegance, Cic. Brut. 46, 172; Arn. 3, p. 108: “Atticus,Quint. 12, 10, 75; cf. id. 6, 4, 107: “sermo non publici saporis,of uncommon elegance, Petr. 3, 1

God is WORD in the same sense that He is LIGHT and all available qualities.  The Word is the Logos and is defined as the Regulative Principle well known to anyone who has ever heard Jesus as the PATTERN saying that He only spoke what the Father breathed into without METRON or meter.

This was removed as a statement of the Spirit of Christ Who is accused of being a blowhard.
Max Moon affirms what all scholars and artists knew::  My basic point is the CofC "instrumental music is sinful" Specific authority/Generic authority arguments have always been absolutely asinine.   Piney is just taking it to the extreme.

As for "preachers" there is no role and no dole. A preacher or Kerusso is a HERALD and he takes the news from one to another and gets hurt if he changes it.  Better let God as the Spirit OF Christ in the prophets answer that: if reading this is too hard then you are excused for despising the HOLY SPIRIT OF CHRIST.

Isa 8:19 And when they shall say unto you,
        Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, [Witch of Endor, empty, dry wineskin or Nebel]
        and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter:
                should not a people seek unto their God?
                for the living to the dead?

Latin [19] et cum dixerint ad vos quaerite a pythonibus et a divinis qui stridunt in incantationibus suis numquid non populus a Deo suo requirit pro vivis a mortuis

Phython The Serpent near Delphi by Apollon, Paul cast out the Pythian spirit from the little girls. Jesus promises to be with the twos and three so that we can learn of Him: why would anyone want to engage is what is always defined as sorcery to make Jesus dumb before the slaughter.

-strīdo  to make a shrill noise, sound harshly, creak, hiss, grate, whiz, whistle, rattle, buzz: stridentia tinguunt Aera lacu, V.: cruor stridit, hisses, O.: belua Lernae Horrendum stridens, V.: horrendā nocte (striges), O.: mare refluentibus undis, V.: aquilone rudentes, O.: videres Stridere secretā aure susurros, buzz, H.

H7442 rânan raw-nan' A primitive root; properly to creak (or emit a stridulous sound), 2. tremulous sound of a mast or pole "Shaken by the wind" also the sound of a torrent. Vibrate the voice TRILL which is the WOMEN'S sound of Halal above.

-cantus , ūs, m. id., 2. With instruments, a playing, music: “in nervorum vocumque cantibus,Cic. Tusc. 1, 2, 4; id. Rosc. Am. 46, 134: “citharae,Hor. C. 3, 1, 20: “horribili stridebat tibia cantu,Cat. 64, 264: “querulae tibiae,Hor. C. 3, 7, 30:
B. An incantation, charm, magic song, etc.: cantusque artesque magorum. Ov. M. 7, 195; 7, 201: “at cantu commotae Erebi de sedibus imis Umbrae ibant,Verg. G. 4, 471: “magici,
-pŏētĭcus , a, um, adj., = poiētikos,
I.poetic, poetical: “verbum,Cic. de Or. 3, 38, 153: “non poëtico sed quodam oratorio numero et modo,id. ib. 1, 33, 151: “di,represented by the poets,

The familiar spirit is a dry, empty wineskin. It serves as the echo chamber of the nebel which means 'VILE.' It has the same meaning as the harp and the sounding gongs in 1 Cor. 13.

All Jews and Most christians who follow the PATTERN worship DEATH and HELL.  Paul quoted from Isaiah 28 when equating speaking in tongues to playing instruments always proof that people will not or cannot hear the WORD.

Is. 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement;
        when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us:
        for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
Is. 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold,
        I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation:
        he that believeth shall not make haste.
Is. 28:17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
Is. 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled,
        and your agreement with hell shall not stand;
        when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

Behold, the name of the Lord comes after a long time, 

        burning wrath; the word of his lips is with glory, a word full of anger
        and the
anger of his wrath shall devour as fire. Isaiah 30:27 LXX

And his breath, as rushing water in a valley, reach reach as far as the neck, and be divided, to confound the nations for their vain error; error also shall pursue them and overtake them. Isaiah 30:28 LXX

Then, God asks why the people must always rejoice as they went to Jerusalem to burn infants in the red hot arms of Molech?

Must ye always rejoice, and go into my holy places continually, as they that keep a feast?
        and must ye go with a PIPE, as those that rejoice into the mountain of the Lord,
        to the God of Israel Isaiah 30:29 LXX
Is. 30:31 For through the voice of the LORD shall the Assyrian [In the Temple] be beaten down, which smote with a rod.
Is. 30:32 And in every place where the grounded staff shall pass,
        which the LORD shall lay upon him,
        it shall be with TABRETS and HARPS: and in BATTLES of shaking will he fight with it.
Is. 30:33 For Tophet is ordained of old;
        yea, for the king it is prepared;
        he hath made it deep and large:
        the pile thereof is fire and much wood;
        the breath [Spirit] of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it. 

To the law and to the testimony:
        if they speak not according to this WORD,
        it is because there is no light in them. Isa 8:20

Max Moon etal says that is ASININE!

Norton at Crace Centered Forum. "Never once do we find in the writings of the Early Church Fathers where they took it upon themselves to write that God had forbidden IM in the church. They cite no apostles or scripture, or anyone else as saying IM in church worship is a sin. 

They were aware of the fatal fall into instrumental always sexual idolatry at Mount Sinai. The is the only example of people engaging in singing, dancing, sexuality, playing instruments and playing with one another. The Church of Christ (the Rock) in the wilderness identified it as an abomination and outlawed "vocal or instrumental rejoicing and self-speak." By mocking those who define words they do not know how vile music when Jesus comes to teach is.


Arnobius Against Heresies

writing (A.D. 297-303) Ridicules instrumental music in worship and Charismatic Worship as idolatrous.

In a footnote on the first page of Book I the editor notes that-

The words insanir, m bacchari, refer to the appearance of the ancient seers when under the influence of the deity. The meaning is, that they make their asserverations with all the confidence of a seer when filled, as he pretended, with the influence of the god." (Arnibious, Ante-Nicene, VI, p. 413)

He notes that it is childish that the gods of the pagans were not interested in heavenly things but with the courser things of earth. However, he is aware that the professional religionists devised the myths and fables to fool fools. They felt this need because "we need to do something about the falling attendance."

Nay, rather, to speak out more truly, the augurs, the dream interpreters, the SOOTHSAYERS, the prophets, and the PRIESTLINGS, ever vain, have devised these fables; for they,

fearing that their own arts be brought to nought, and that they may extort but scanty contributions from the devotees, now few and infrequent,

whenever they have found you to be willing that their craft should come into disrepute, cry aloud, the Gods are neglected, and

in the temples there is now a very thin attendance. For ceremonies are exposed to derision, and the time-
honoured rites of institutions once sacred have sunk before the superstitions of
new religions.

And men--a senseless race--being unable, from their inborn blindness, to see even that which is placed in open light,

dare to assert in their frenzy
what you in your sane mind
do not blush to believe. (Arnobius Against the Heathen, Ante-Nicene Fathers, VI, p. 418).

Arnobius ridicules the pagan gods by asking: arnobius, instrumental music in worship,

Is it the Titans and the Bocchores of the Moors, and the Syrian deities the offspring of eggs? Is it Apis (worshipped at Mt Sinai), born in the Peloponnese, and in Egypt is called Serapis? (Arnibious, Ante-Nicene, VI, p. 422)

Arnobius is aware that most of the "gods" were "dead heros" who had invented some useful device or composed a song and thereby been deified--

Aesculapius, because he discovered the use of herbs; Minerva, because she produced the olive; Triptolemus, because he invented the plough; Hercules, because he overpowered and restrained wild beasts and robbers. (Arnibious, Ante-Nicene, VI, p. 423)

In showing how ridiculous it was that the Earth be worshipped by the sacrifice of a pregnant sow just because the earth was fruitful, Arnobius concludes that it was equally logical that instrumental music in worship be used to honor the pretend gods:

Apollo should be honored by the sacrifice of musicians because he is a musician;... and because Mercury (Hermes) is eloquent, sacrifice should be made to him with the eloquent and most fluent. (Arnobius Against the Heathen, Ante-Nicene Fathers, VI, p. 423).

Instrumental Music in worship performers are charged with the sin of "idolatry." We still worship those who can speak the loudest, makes the best show or sing the best tune: no ugly person need apply:

I worshipped images produced from the furnace, gods made on anvils and by hammers, the bones of elephants, paintings, wreaths on aged trees; whenever I espied an anointed stone and one bedaubed with olive oil, as if some power resided in it I worshipped it, I addressed myself to it and begged blessings from a senseless stock. (Arnobius Against the Heathen, Ante-Nicene Fathers, VII, p. 423).

Why do you speak of things which you have not examined, and which are unknown to you, prating with the garrulity of a rash tongue? Were, then, those things which were done, the freaks of demons, and the tricks of the magical arts? Can you specify and point out to me any one of all those magicians who have ever existed in past ages, that did anything similar, in the thousandth degree, to Christ? Who has done this without any power of incantations? (Arnobius Against the Heathen, Ante-Nicene, VI, p. 425).

Christ "wrought without any aid from external things,

without the observance of any ceremonial,
without any definite mode of procedure,

but solely by the inherent might of His authority.... Is He one of us, at whose command, at whose voice, raised in the utterances of audible and intelligible words, infirmities, diseases, fevers, and other ailments of the body fled away." (Footnote: This is contrasted with the mutterings of strange words used by the magicians.") (Arnibious, Ante-Nicene, VI, p. 425)

Whose name (Christ), when heard, puts to flight evil spirits, imposes silence on soothsayers, prevents men from consulting augurs, causes the efforts of arrogant magicians to be frustrated, not by the dread of His name, as you allege, but by the free exercise of a greater power." (Arnobious, Ante-Nicene, VI, p. 426)

For when He forsaw that you were to be the detractors of His deeds and of His divine work, in order that no lurking suspicion might remain of His having lavished these gifts and bounties by magic arts... without any deceit and without any material aids." (Arnobius Against the Heathen, Ante-Nicene, VI, p. 427)

Playing Instrumental Music Games with Christ

On page 427 Arnobius discuses "magical arts" as opposed to the miracles of the unlearned apostles who used no deceit or material aids. On page 427 he shows that Christ drove demons from people and "reversed the ceremonies of the funeral rites" which had been conducted to magically appease the "loved one" perhaps neglected in life.

In contrasting Christ with Bactrian and others who claimed powers of magic and had herbs with power. They "muttered words" and thereby cast spells. On the other hand, Christ worked with simple word commands--

There was nothing magical, as you suppose, nothing human, delusive, or crafty in Christ; no deceit lurked in Him, although you smile in derision, as your wont is, and though you split with roars of laughter." (Arnibious, Ante-Nicene, VI, p. 428)

In continuing his discussion of how the power of Christ works, the soothsayers, augurs and magicians has been replaced by those who pour "dulcet sounds" into the ears--

For indeed it evidences a worthless heart to seek enjoyment in matters of importance; and when you have to deal with those who are sick and diseased,

to pour into their ears dulcet sounds, not to apply a remedy to their wounds." (Arnibious, Ante-Nicene, VI, p. 430)

If the Sibyl, when she was uttering and pouring forth her prophecies and oracular responses, was filled, as you say, with Apollo's power, had been cut down and slain by impious robbers, would Appolo be said to have been slain in her? If Bacis, If Helenus, Marcius, and other soothsayers, had been in like manner robbed of life and light when raving as inspired, would any one say that those who, speaking by their mouths, declared to inquireres what should be done?" (Arnobious, Ante-Nicene, VI, p. 431)

Instrumental Worship, the Priest and Homosexual connection

"Tyrants and kings plunder and pillage the treasuries of temples and "wrest away the chastity of matrons and maidens,--these men you name indigites and divi; and you worship with couches, altars, temples and other service,

and by celebrating their games and birthday... who seek to persuade men that
the rights of marriage should be held in common;
lie with boys, beautiful, lustful, naked; who declare that you are beasts...
all these with wonder and applause you exalt to the stars of heaven, you place in the shrines of your libraries, you present with chariots and statues, and as much as in you lies, give with a kind of immortality." (Arnibious, Ante-Nicene, VI, p. 432)

"Some of them are brought forward in the character of lovers, destroyers of purity, to commit shameful and degrading deeds not only with women, but with men also. You take no care as to what is said about matters of such importance." (Arnobius, Against the Heathen, AnteNicene, VI, p. 487).

Arnobius: Don't Listen to Polished Speakers about Instrumental Music

"They speak in the most elegant language, and that their words flow in polished periods; that they reason in syllogisms with utmost acuteness; .. that they say many things about the different kinds of numbers, many things about music; that by their maxims and precepts they settle the problems of geometry also." However, he continues--

A comparison of persons must be decided,

not by vigour of eloquence,
but by the
excellence of the works which they have done.
He must
not be called a good teacher who has expressed himself clearly,

but he who accompanies his promises with the guarantee of divine works." (Arnobius Against the Heathen, Ante-Nicene, VI, p. 438).

"If men either knew themselves thoroughly, or had the slightest knowledge of God, they would never claim as their own a divine and immortal nature; nor would they think themselves something great because they have made for themselves... knives, swords" and etc.

carried away by pride and arrogance, would they believe themselves to be deities of the first rank,
and fellows of the highest in his
exaltation, because they had devised the arts of grammar, music, oratory, and geometry.
For we do not see what is so wonderful in these arts, that because of their discovery

the soul should be believed to be above the sun as well as all the stars, to surpass both in grandeur and essence the whole universe, of which these are parts. "

For what else do these assert that they can either declare or teach, than that we may learn to know the rules and differences of nouns,

the intervals in the sounds of different tones, that we may speak persuasively in lawsuits, that we may measure the confines of the earth?

Now if the soul had brought these arts with it from the celestial regions, and it were impossible not to know them, all men would long before this be busied with them all over the earth...

But see now how few musicians, logicians, and geometricians are there in the world! How few orators, poets, critics!..." (Arnibious, Ante-Nicene, VI, p. 441)

And be not deceived or deluded with vain hopes by that which is said by some ignorant and most presumptious pretenders, that they are born of God, and are not subject to the decrees of fate; that His palace lies open to them if they lead a life of temperance, and that after death as men, they are restored without hinderance, as if their father's abode;

not by that which the "Magi assert, that they have intercessory prayers, won over by which some powers make the way easy
to those who are
striving to mount to heaven;

not by that which Etruria holds out in the Acherontic books that souls become, and are freed from the law of death, if the blood of certain animals is offered to certain deities.

These are empty delusions, and excite vain desires. None but the Almighty God can preserve souls; nor is there any one besides who can give them length of days, and grant to them also a spirit which shall never die."

(Footnote: Magi are 'certain fortune-telling vagrant seers, who persuade the rich

that they have power with the gods, by means of charms and sacrifices...
familiar terms with evil powers,
and thus able to accomplish
whatever is within these spirit's power.) (Arnibious, Ante-Nicene, VI, p. 457)

The pagans argued that Christianity could not be true because it was so young. However, Arnobius noted that, by the same argument, the gods who gained their status through the arts such as instrumental music as worship cannot be true gods.

His argument is that music and other arts as proof that one was a god must have had their own beginning at one time.

By their argument, therefore, their religion could not be true.

"For instance, music did not seem to originate with the gods because it was a fairly recent invention--
philosophy, music and all the other arts by which social life has been built up and refined,--were these born with men, and did they not rather begin to be pursued, understood, and practiced lately, nay, rather, but a short time since?" (Arnobius Against the Heathen, Ante-Nicene, VI, p. 460).
Norton at Crace Centered Forum: Most of the writers  being bishops, did what bishops are supposed to do. They gave their judgements on matters, not addressed by the Lord or the apostles. They said the Church did not use lifeless instruments in worship because they didn't want to be like the Jews and pagans

Justin Martyr Chapter XVIII.-Christians Would Observe the Law, If They Did Not Know Why It Was Instituted.

"For since you have read, O Trypho, as you yourself admitted, the doctrines taught by our Saviour, I do not think that I have done foolishly in adding some short utterances of His to the prophetic statements.

Wash therefore, and be now clean, and put away iniquity from your souls,
as God bids you be washed in this laver,
and be circumcised with the true circumcision.

For we too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined you,-namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your hearts. For if we patiently endure all things contrived against us by wicked men and demons, so that even amid cruelties unutterable, death and torments, we pray for mercy to those who inflict such things upon us, and do not wish to give the least retort to any one, even as the new Lawgiver commanded us: how is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us,-I speak of fleshly circumcision, and Sabbaths, and feasts?

Chapter XIX.-Circumcision Unknown Before Abraham. The Law Was Given by Moses on Account of the Hardness of Their Hearts.

"It is this about which we are at a loss, and with reason, because, while you endure such things, you do not observe all the other customs which we are now discussing." "This circumcision is not, however, necessary for all men, but for you alone, in order that, as I have already said, you may suffer these things which you now justly suffer. Nor do we receive that useless baptism of cisterns, for it has nothing to do with this baptism of life.

Wherefore also God has announced that you have forsaken Him, the living fountain, and digged for your selves broken cisterns which can hold no water. Even you, who are the circumcised according to the flesh, have need of our circumcision; but we, having the latter, do not require the former. For if it were necessary, as you suppose, God would not have made Adam uncircumcised; would not have had respect to the gifts of Abel when, being uncircumcised, he offered sacrifice and would not have been pleased with the uncircumcision of Enoch, who was not found, because God had translated him. Lot, being uncircumcised, was saved from Sodom, the angels themselves and the Lord sending him out. Noah was the beginning of our race; yet, uncircumcised, along with his children he went into the ark. Melchizedek, the priest of the Most High, was uncircumcised;

to whom also Abraham the first who received circumcision after the flesh, gave tithes, and he blessed him: after whose order God declared, by the mouth of David, that He would establish the everlasting priest. Therefore to you alone this circumcision was necessary, in order that the people may be no people, and the nation no nation; as also Hosea, one of the twelve prophets, declares.

Moreover, all those righteous men already mentioned, though they kept no Sabbaths, were pleasing to God; and after them Abraham with all his descendants until Moses, under whom your nation appeared unrighteous and ungrateful to God,

making a calf in the wilderness:
wherefore God,
accommodating Himself to that nation,
enjoined them
also to offer sacrifices,

as if to His name, in order that you might not serve idols. Which precept, however, you have not observed; nay, you sacrificed your children to demons.

And you were commanded to keep Sabbaths, that you might retain the memorial of God. For His word makes this announcement, saying, "That ye may know that I am God who redeemed you.'


Norton at Crace Centered Forum: And of course they didn't use the "authority principle" against instruments, because that doctrine didn't appear until the Reformation.

Aristot. Nic. Eth. 1175b.1

But things that are akin to things of different kinds must themselves differ in kind.
        [3] A still clearer proof may be drawn
        from the hindrance that activities
        receive from the pleasure derived from other activities.

For instance, persons fond of the flute
        cannot give their attention
to a philosophical discussion
                [The LOGOS or Regulative Principle]
        when they overhear someone playing the flute,
        because they enjoy music more than the activity in which they are engaged;
                therefore the pleasure afforded by the music of the flute
                impairs the activity of study.

GOD DOES NOT LET PEOPLE READ BLACK TEXT ON BROWN PAPER: Why would a preacher with no God-given role or Dole think that they have more authority than Jesus? Because they are hirelings who speak on their own.

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man,
        then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself;
        but as my Father hath taught me, I SPEAK these things.
John 8:38  SPEAK that which I have seen with my Father:
        and ye DO that which ye have seen with your father.
John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself;
        but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment,
        what I should say, and what I should speak
John 17:14 I have given them thy WORD; and the world hath hated them,
        because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
John 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy WORD is truth.
John 17:18 As thou hast SENT me into the world, even so have I also SENT them into the world.

The Regulative Principle began in Heaven when God Cast Lucifer As Profane out of Heaven: He-she is called a singing an harp playing prostitute.

Jesus as the WORD is the
-LOGOS or rational discord of God made audible and capable of being recorded. The ONE God always had His Word and Reason with Him.

-Lego Count, recount, tell over, say, speak, 8. at the beginning of letters or documentsmaintain as a thesis
    Sophron of sound mindhaving control over the sensual desires, temperate, self-controlled, chaste, reasonable comparison. , esp. in the theatre,Singing the words of a male god was considered obscene.

Opposite to epithumia
 A. desire, yearning, longing after a thing, desire of or for it, Theaomai :--gaze at, behold, mostly with a sense of wonder,
view as spectators
Ratio   I. a reckoning, account, calculation, computation.
1. plea, pretext, ground, would have admitted of an explanation,
2. statement of a theory, argument, to be explained
      c. in Logic, proposition, whether as premiss or conclusion
      d. rule, principle, law, as embodying the result of logismos
4. thesis, hypothesis, provisional ground,
5. reason, ground
6. formula (wider than definition, but freq. equivalent thereto), term expressing reason,
7. reason, law exhibited in the world-process,
   c. understood by the Greeks: of regulative and formative forces, derived from the intelligible and operative in the sensible universe
IV. inward debate of the soul 1.thinking, reasoning,  explanation,
Opposite Pathos  A. that which happens to a person or thing, incident, accident, where this incident took place, unfortunate accident,
Opposite 2. what one has experienced, good or bad, experience
Opposite II. of the soul, emotion, passion (“legō de pathē . . holōs hois hepetai hēdonē ē lupēArist.EN1105b21), “sophiē psukhēn pathōn aphaireitai
Opposite Poiein to excite passion, Arist.Rh.1418a12; V. Rhet., emotional style or treatment, to sphodron kai enthousiastikon p. Longin.8.1; “pathos poieinArist. Rh.1418a12; “
Opposite  epagōgēs IV. inward debate of the soul
in Logic, of discursive reasoning, 
OPPOSITE intuition
2. reason as a faculty,
V. continuous statement, narrative (whether fact or fiction), oration lego Truth Opposite myths, poems
4.speech, delivered in court, assembly
VI. verbal expression or utterance, lego, lexis
      -Lexis A.speech, OPPOSITE ôidê
IX  of rhythmical language set to music, en logois in orations
en logō kai en ōdaisprose
-poiêsis, Id.R.390a;
OPPOSITE -poiêtikê, D.H.Comp.6; opp. poiêmata, onomatopoeic word
OPPOSITE  -poi-êsis A.fabrication, creation, production,
OPPOSITE   -Melos   B. esp. musical member, phrase: hence, song, strain, lyric songs,
OPPOSITE   3.melody of an instrument, mimesis Aoide singing, spell, incantations,
OPPOSITE  -Mousa  -Melodia -Cantus B. An incantation, charm, magic song
Logos is the 
  emmetra, ib.1450b15 (pl Id.Rh.1404a31
X. the Word or Wisdom of God, personified as his agent in creation and world-government

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