First Century Diversity: Fred Peatross And Drinking Wine

Fred Peatross: Jesus was a party-goer, a gregarious friend of sinners. Yet both Jesus and John pleased God.

The Grace Centered Magazines defines the false charge against Jesus.

Fred Peatross: His sermons emphasized grace and mercy (Matthew 11:18-19). He was a party-goer, a gregarious friend of sinners. Yet both Jesus and John pleased God.

Except to Get Drunk, the Jews neve drank much FERMENTED wine: Much to the dismay of the wine industry, between the founding of the state in 1948 and until just five years ago, annual Israeli wine consumption remained at about 3.9 liters per capita. Compared to the 60 liter plus consumption of the French, Italians and Spanish, this was not very high. Nor was it high compared to the 11 liter figure of the United States. Resource.

A DRUNK drank wine, a tippler drank highly mixed wine and water but the common people drank the preserved fruit of the vine as a food.

by Stan Schirmacher
And Social Drinking
Lost original link

"Only eternity will reveal how many people have been misled by the ignorance and misunderstanding of the word "wine" in the Bible! Unbelievers and drinkers have wielded a whip tipped with Scriptures and Christians have allowed the whip to continue to snap because they didn't know how to clip the point - that the message was against liquor, NOT FOR IT!"

Grape juice will rot without human art:

"Pick some well-ripened early grapes ; discard any which are mildewed or damaged. Drive into the ground forked branches or stakes made of rods tied into bundles, at a distance of about four feet apart. Lay reeds across them and spread the grapes out in the sun on top. Cover them at night so that the dew will not moisten them. When they are dried, pick the grapes off the stems and put them in a jar or pitcher. Add some unfermented wine, the best you have, until the grapes are just covered. After six days, when the grapes have absorbed it all and are swollen, put them in a basket, put them through the press and collect the resulting liquid. Next press the marc, adding fresh unfermented wine made with other grapes which have been left in the sun for three days. Stir it well, and put it trough the press. Bottle at once in luted vessels the liquid produced by this second pressing, so that it will not turn sour. After twenty or thirty days when the fermentation is over, decant it into fresh vessels. Coat the lids with plaster and cover them with leather" [ 27.Columellus, XII, 39. 1-2. 28) Ibid., VI, 1,3.]

In the Baal Cycle Text

And the Virgin Anath replied:

"We do beseech Lady Asherah of the Sea.
We entreat the Creatress of Gods.
The Gods eat and drink,
And those that suck the breast quaff
With a keen knife
A slice of fatling.
They drink wine from a goblet,
From a cup of gold, the blood of vines."

And the men of Shechem set liers in wait for him in the top of the mountains, and they robbed all that came along that way by them: and it was told Abimelech. Jud 9:25

And Gaal the son of Ebed came with his brethren, and went over to Shechem: and the men of Shechem put their confidence in him. Jud 9:26

And they went out into the fields, and gathered their vineyards, and trode the grapes, and made merry, and went into the house of their god, and did eat and drink, and cursed Abimelech. Jud.9:27

As part of the Emerging Church of Christ we have looked at Fred's fond wish to add hand clapping to the worship ritual. Next, we have looked at the urge to make worship into a specticle of sight and sound. In this review we look first at the claim that Jesus was a party-going wine drinker before looking at the charge that Jesus manufactured and dispensed perhaps 160 gallons of intoxicants to a soon-to-be or already pregnant bride.

None of these have any Biblical foundation and are not likely to emerge in a church of Christ.

Fred Peatross: Chapter Three Diversity is Biblical

The genius of the restoration plea is in its call for Christians to unite despite their many differences. Our movement's history, as well as the early church's history, is replete with examples of unity in diversity. The secret is simple. Rally around Jesus; agree on the essentials; allow for differences in nonessentials.

Utterly false, without literary evidence and CONTRARY to literary evidence! When asked about "Christians among the sects" Campbell insisted that they come out of Babylon

See the new SECT called The Stone Campbell Movement for proof that there was never any UNITY in diversity once people began to test faith and practices by the Bible

Everyone claims to rally around Jesus. However, the plea of he Restoration leaders was to "rally around the Bible." The only way to have any kind of unity on essentials was to depend on the Word for faith and practices. The Restoration Movement was formed because it did not and could not worship where a dominant clergy existed, little babies were sprinkled, communion was limited to the insiders or baptism FOR the remission of sin was denied. All groups of the RM had long ago refused to adopt instrumental music from the Catholic church which she claims to have adopted from pagan cults.

Thomas Campbell wrote:

This desirable rest, however, we utterly despair either to find for ourselves, or to be able to recommend to our brethren,

by continuing amid the diversity and rancor of party contentions, the veering uncertainty and clashings of human opinions:

nor, indeed, can we reasonably expect to find it anywhere but in Christ and his simple word, which is the same yesterday, to-day, and forever.

Our desire, therefore, for ourselves and our brethren would be, that,rejecting human opinions and the inventions of men as of any authority, or as having any place in the Church of God, we might forever cease from further contentions about such things;

returning to and holding fast by the original standard;

taking the Divine word alone for our rule; the Holy Spirit for our teacher and guide, to lead us into all truth; and Christ alone, as exhibited in the word, for our salvation; that, by so doing, we may be at peace among ourselves, follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.

[Thomas Campbell noted elsewhere that: "I am not to be understood as

objecting to the detection and exposure of a false and unscriptural experience, which, from your words, appears to be the thing intended; for, in your foot note, page 141, you assert, that we are taught, that

"since those gifts have ceased, the Holy Spirit now operates upon the minds of men only by the word;" and at the close of said note, you further assert, that

"we are positive of one point,"

namely, "that the scriptures teach us not the doctrine of physical operations of the Divine Spirit in order to faith."

There was no "diversity" about instrumental music and when it was added it sowed discord and it was not a diversity which they tolerated.

Everyone allows for differences in nonessentials. However, the Post Modern or "high church" movement denies that the Bible is our authority. The Restoration Movement claims Scripture as authority. Therefore, John Locke and common sense would define them as two different religions. They, indeed, have different Christs and different gospels.

Unity was broken over music by those who forced it in without any need for Biblical justification. This broke the unity because the entire Bible and church history does not put mechanical music or the works of human hands in the arena of nonessentials. Neither did Paul who outlawed machines by defining the "first instrument of choice" in both the word Psalm and song: the human voice and heart.

Fred Peatross: First-Century Diversity

In Romans 14, Paul addressed the diversity of the early church. Some would only eat vegetables; some wouldn't drink wine; others observed certain holy days. How did Paul handle the problem? Did he set them all straight with a rigid orthodox interpretation that demanded uniformity?

No. He allowed each one the liberty to exercise his personal spiritual practice as long as these preferences weren't bound on others.

Paul's Solution to Diversity was to Speak or Teach the documents of the church to make changes. This replaced the use of charismatic music to fake spiritual changes by sexual or sensual feelings. In chapter 14 Paul outlawed doubtful disputations or that which arises out of human imagination or preferences. Then, In Romans 15 Paul defined the synagogue as using that which is written for our learning.

The Orphic background in the church in Rome included being a vegetarian but highly addicted to charismatic, musical worship where teaching had no place.

The Dionysic background was of wine-drinking, meat-eating and also highly addicted to instrumental music, out of your mind "worship."

Reading history helps a lot to understand Paul whom, Peter warned, was difficult to understand because of his figurative language which was to hide the truth from the mercinaries just as Jesus used parables "from the foundation of the World." Romans 14-15 actually prohibites instruments.

As in all of his 'singing' passages Paul then prescribes the assembly as a synagogue and not a pagan worship center. Therefore, Paul did not give permission for eating meat, not eating meat, drinking wine or playing musical instruments. They simply had no role to play in "seeking" God through His Word. Just as Thomas Campbell said that people should leave their peculiar beliefs at home and just assemble to worship by "reading the Word" as a community school or synagogue, Paul said:

Cycle One

Cycle Two

WE then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves. Romans 15:1
And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. Romans 15:10
Romans 15:2 Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification.

For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me. Romans 15:3

And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. Romans 15:11
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning (teaching), that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. Romans 15:4
And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust. Romans 15:12
Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus: Romans 15:5
Now the God of hope fill you (not with wine but) with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost. Romans 15:13
That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify (tell of His works) God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 15:6
And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another. Romans 15:14
Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister (deacon) of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: Romans 15:8
Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God. Romans 15:15
And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will
(2) that the offering (bloodless sacrifice) up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost. Romans 15:16
(1) confess to thee among the Gentiles, and
(1) That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles,
ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed. Rom 15:18

Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. Rom 15:19

Fred Peatross: The New Testament emphasizes diversity. It is not wrong to remain single, but it is wrong to prohibit marriage (1 Timothy 4:3). It is not wrong to abstain, but it is wrong to forbid wine (Romans 14:21).

John the Baptist was an abstemious loner who preferred the desert to parties and luxuries.

His sermons emphasized doom and judgment.

Jesus was the opposite.

His sermons emphasized grace and mercy (Matthew 11:18-19). He was a party-goer, a gregarious friend of sinners. Yet both Jesus and John pleased God.

The New Testament allows diversity in untaught things. Paul did not say that it was wrong to fobid wine. In fact, one could not perform the "churching" task of the above table and drink wine. If one drank even non intoxicating wine (as was the custom except for tipplers) Paul said: "Do it at home."

It is not wrong to play instruments unless they are used to bring on the madness Paul condemns in 1 Cor. 14. However, Paul did not permit either the Orphics or dionysics to bring their harp to church.

The solution was to teach revealed truth WITH ONE VOICE or MOUTH and that excludes machines in teaching or glorifying God.

Fred Peatross: He was a party-goer, a gregarious friend of sinners. Yet both Jesus and John pleased God.

The Truth

John

didn't eat or drink?

The Lie

John

Had a Devil
If you buy the "new wineskin's" view then you must conclude that the Adversary was right and John had a devil.

The Fact

John

Was Abstemious

Fred

Jesus

Was the Opposite

Fred's Conclusion

Jesus

Was not Abstemious

Fred's Guilt is accusing

Jesus

Just like the Pharisees
How could an Elijah and God be opposites? Then how could John and Jesus be opposites? John came to prepare the way by calling people to repent and be baptized.

Jesus said that those who didn't believe and be baptized would be damned. Does this sound like Law versus Grace?

The Adversary's charge against Jesus:

The Truth

Jesus

Ate Food

-

The Lie

Jesus

Ate Food

To Gluttony

If Fred is correct then Jesus was a glutton.

And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. Deut 21:20

Cobe (h5435) so'-beh, from 5433; potation, concr. (wine), or abstr. (carousal): - drink, drunken, wine.

And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. Deut 21:21

We don't buy Fred's new emerging view of the church of Christ or any church.

Next, Fred sides with the adversaries of Jesus:

The Truth

Jesus

Drank

-

The Lie

Jesus

Drank

Wine

Remember that Hannah, like Jesus, prayed in the spirit and in this connection note that:

So Hannah rose up after they had eaten in Shiloh, and after they had drunk. Now Eli the priest sat upon a seat by a post of the temple of the Lord. 1 Sam 1:9

And Hannah answered and said, No, my lord, I am a woman of a sorrowful spirit: I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but have poured out my soul before the Lord. 1 Sam 1:15

Count not thine handmaid for a daughter of Belial: for out of the abundance of my complaint and grief have I spoken hitherto. 1 Sam 1:16

Next, look at the same conflict between what the Scriptures actually say and what the Adversaries twisted the truth into:

The Truth

Jesus Drank

Pino (g4095) pee'-no; a prol. form of pio +tx pee'-o, which (together with another form poo +tx po'-o) occurs only as an alt. in cert. tenses; to imbibe (lit. or fig.): - drink

The Lie

Jesus Drank Wine

Oinopotes (g3630) oy-nop-ot'-ace; from 3631 and a der. of the alt. of 4095; a tipler: - winebibber.

Was Jesus really a "party-goer and friend of sinners?"

The Truth

Jesus

Ate with Sinner's at Matthew's house.

Fred

Jesus

Was a "party-goer, a gregarious friend of sinners."

First, let's note that Jesus didn't set up a Spectacle Worship to call the Seekers to Him by using Seeker's methods.

Jesus did not extend grace and mercy to those still in their sins.

Here is how it often happened:

While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" came and ate with him and his disciples. Mt.9:10NIV

And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners? Mt.9:11

But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. Mt. 9:12

But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Mt. 9:13

Fred wants to UNITE in the DIVERSITY of sinners: Jesus intended to CALL THEM TO REPENTANCE.

Fred wants to call the Musical Worship Team: Jesus "cast them our more or less violently" using a word meaning "like DUNG."

Were these the Friends of party-goer, gregarious friend of sinners?

A friend is:

Philos (g5384) fee'-los; prop. dear, i.e. a friend; act. fond, i.e. friendly (still as a noun, an associate, neighbor, etc.): - friend

How does Jesus define His friends?

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Jn.15:14

Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. Jn.15:15

Just what is a gregarious friend of Sinners?

Gregarious fr. grex, gregis, herd; cf. Gr. to assemble, Skr. jar to approach. Cf. {Congregate}, {Egregious}.] Habitually living or moving in flocks or herds; tending to flock or herd together; not habitually solitary or living alone.--Webster.

Conclusion: Jesus was not a friend of sinners. Jesus didn't congregate or herd with sinners. Jesus' grace extended only to those who ceased being sinners and "came out of the herd."

The "friends" of the herd murdered Jesus: some friends.

Was Jesus Less Ethical Than Samson or John?

Didn't Jesus understand the basic knowledge 101a expressed by Ben Sirach? look at his views of associating with or even giving aid to sinners!

By definition, being filled with the Spirit was antithetical to drinking either wine or strong drink. Of John:

For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mothers womb. Lu.1:15

Did God Incarnate take liberties with drinking wine and strong drink which would not be permitted to any spirit filled person?

The Romans and others knew that being pregnant and drinking wine was outlawed. They understood that mental and physical damage would be the result, as we now know, of drinking only a small quantity of intoxicants.

Therefore, Samson's mother was told:

But he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink (intoxicating), neither eat any unclean thing: for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death. Jud.13:7

The adversary forced Samson to "rise up to play" just as the Israelites did at Mount Sinai and the Jews tried to force onto Jesus as they mocked Him

Most "juice" would ferment somewhat even when an attempt was made to preserve it unless it was boiled or dried. By drinking wine even in the juice stage it was possible to consume enough intoxicants to damage the embryo.

Next, the same false accusers (Satans) or "den of vipers" accused Jesus of being a glutton and a wine drinker simply because He did not refuse to eat and drink with the common people.

Further Expansion of Fred's Lumping Jesus with Party-goers and gregarious friend of sinners.

As John "did not eat or drink" meant that he did not eat with the common rabble, the fact that Jesus ate and drank means that He had to meet the sinners where they lived but this is not the truth:

Fred Peatross: He was a party-goer, a gregarious friend of sinners. Yet both Jesus and John pleased God.

Jesus denied it.
The Context of the FALSE WISDOM.

or John came neither eating nor drinking,

and THEY say, He hath a devil. Mt 11:18 F

The Son of man came eating and drinking,

and THEY say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners.

But wisdom is justified of her children. Matt 11:19

If Jesus was a "wine drinker" then John had a devil. Truth denies it but the Accuser charged Jesus with drinking WINE because he ate and drank with others in a social sense while John did not.

The statement of Fact:

Jesus Said:

The Son of man came eating and drinking,

Drinking here DOES NOT MEAN a wine drinker:

Pino (g4095) pee'-no; a prol. form of pio +tx pee'-o, which (together with another form poo +tx po'-o) occurs only as an alt. in cert. tenses; to imbibe (lit. or fig.): - drink

The conclusions of the false accusers and Fred:

and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. Matt 11:19a

Who are they? They are the adversaries of Christ.

What was the response of Jesus?

But wisdom is justified of her children. Matt 11:19b

We might say: "The proof of the pudding is in the eating." Therefore, if Jesus was a tippler or winebibber then they could say: "We saw you drunk in the market." Since they didn't have any evidence then Jesus called them liars.

Jesus said "I drank."

You say "I'm a drunk."

You have no witnesses therefore your accusations are the children of your folish lying.

A Winebibber is:

Oinopotes (g3630) oy-nop-ot'-ace; from 3631 and a der. of the alt. of 4095; a tipler: - winebibber.

Oinos (g3631) oy'-nos; a prim. word (or perh. of Heb. or. [3196]; "wine" (lit. or fig.): - wine.

Pino (g4095) pee'-no; a prol. form of pio +tx pee'-o, which (together with another form poo +tx po'-o) occurs only as an alt. in cert. tenses; to imbibe (lit. or fig.): - drink

If Jesus drank any fermented wine he was a winebibber or a tippler. This also accuses Him of being a glutton. This was a false accusation and Jesus will call them liars.

They didn't accuse Jesus of being a drunkard but of being a "wine drinker."

In Plutus, Hermes defines a new type of "wine":

Formerly, from earliest dawn, I was offered all sorts of good things in the wine-shops, -- wine-cakes, honey, dried figs, in short, dishes worthy of Hermes. Now, I lie the livelong day on my back, with my legs in the air, famishing.

Hermes then defines a tippler:

Oh! the delicious tipple, half-wine, half-water!

Aristotle said:

And the pleasanter wine is not the wine pleasant to a man whose palate has been corrupted by tippling,

since sometimes they pour in a dash of vinegar, but to the uncorrupted taste.

And: For taste is concerned with discriminating flavors, as is done by wine-tasters, and cooks preparing savory dishes

When the Jewish drink offering was made, neither the priest nor God drank it: it was poured out at the base of the altar. In the Classics:

Aristotle Politics: Or by the usage of language. Thus any mixed drink is called oinos, 'wine'.

Hence Ganymede is said 'to pour the wine to Zeus,' though the gods do not drink wine. So too workers in iron are called chalkeas, or 'workers in bronze.' This, however, may also be taken as a metaphor

Jesus was recognized as God by the Jews. Therefore, if they had ever forced or caught Him drinking wine they could have disqualifed Him as God, as prince and as king.

It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: Pr.31:4

Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted. Pr 31:5

Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Pr 31:6

Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more. Pr 31:7

Strong drink is fermented with the goal of intoxication.

A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities (1890) (eds. William Smith, LLD, William Wayte, G. E. Marindin)

MENSU´RA or measures

To suppose that the proportion was one cup of wine to twenty medimnoi of water is absurd; whereas the proportion of one cup of wine to twenty cups of water is sufficiently marvellous to show the strength of the wine without falling into grotesque exaggeration. The word kotulê occurs occasionally in Homer (only in the Odyssey) in the sense of cup. It probably is the same as depas, and thus connects the Homeric depas with the kotulê of later times.

Commentary on Homer, Odyssey. book 9, line 209.

[209] hen depas. It was customary in the earliest times to pour the wine into the water, and not, as later, the water into the wine. Cp. Od.7. 164.

hen depas emplêsas is just equivalent to the Latin past participle, 'unum poculum impletum;' as, inf. 340, epethêke thureon megan hupsos' aeiras would be represented by 'obicem magnum sursum sublatum admovit.' Translate, then, 'He poured one full cup of wine into twenty measures of water.' For the use of ana to express 'distribution' compare an-emisge de sitôi

pharmaka lugra Od.10. 235, ana de kri leukon emixan Od.4. 41.Nitzsch compares Xen. Anab.3. 4. 21hex lochous ana eikosi andras. In Pliny's time the wine of Maroneia kept something of its ancient fame, the proportion of the water with this wine in common use being eight to one, 'sextarios singulos octonis aquae' N. H. 14. 6.

They poured out the sour wine to Jesus as "God" but Jesus didn't drink even though perishing.

Look again at how Jesus as king and prince could not and would not have been a WINE DRINKER even though He ate socially with people while John did not:

and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners.

But wisdom is justified of her children. Matt 11:19

The short answer Jesus gave the false accusers was: "You are Liars." If Jesus drank any wine then John had a demon and Jesus was a tippler and a glutton. Pretty dangerous charge.

Adam Clark wrote of Matthew 11:

Verse 19. The Son of man came eating and drinking] That is, went wheresoever he was invited to eat a morsel of bread, and observed no rigid fasts: how could he, who had no corrupt appetites to mortify or subdue? They say, Behold a man gluttonous, &c.] Whatever measures the followers of God may take, they will not escape the censure of the world: the best way is not to be concerned at them.

Iniquity, being always ready to oppose and contradict the Divine conduct,
often contradicts and exposes itself.

The adversary opposed and contradicted Divine conduct but in reality contradicted and exposed itself. That seems fair.

Fred then speaks of drinking alcohol at a church which we won't quote. However, he continues:

Fred Peatross: More recently, I've become familiar with a group of believers (a community church) who not only believe in drinking in moderation,

but also purchase alcohol for their small group fellowships. (It's amazing how many outsiders come to their meetings. )

Surprise! Surprise! Surprise! The Dionysians had wine and also women and MEN for your enjoyment. It is NOT amazing at all to see how many OUTSIDERS come to their meeting."

I don't think I would stir controversy by saying that wine was given to us by a beneficient God who knew from time to time that we would need it. The Bible has a lot to say about wine. In fact, the grapevine and its primary product, Wine, are mentioned more thall any other plant.

Or as recorded below:

The Bible doesn't say a great deal about the use of wine in ordinary life.

WINE is the product of rot and decay. Without SIN induced by Satan the VINE would produce grape juice. The testimony of all of the literature is that DIONYSUS as a SATAN type discovered how to take juice and turn it from a FOOD PRODUCT into wine. The religious sect under Dionysus as the son of Zeus literally existed in the Temple in Jerusalem. It was devoted to MUSIC, The GYMNASIUM and SEXUALITY. The PERVERTED musicians on Greek vases always depict the JUDAS BAG attached to the flute case of a drunken, naked, perverted member of the Greek comedy or tragedy.

We will note below that God gave the vine to produce grapes. Vines don't produce alcohol any better than corn or barley. However, of Israel whom God likens to a vineyard which had begun to use the grapes as a poison

What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes (poison)? Isaiah 5:4

The French chemist, Count Chaptal said that

"Nature never forms spiritous liquors; she ROTS the grape upon the vine; but it is art which converts the juice into wine."

Turner in the book Chemistry wrote:

"It does not exist ready formed in plants, but is a product of the vineous fermentation."

The Italiah writer, Adam Fabroni says: "Grape juice does not ferment in the grape itself."

"GOOD"&emdash;Unfermented Wine Was a Common Food Product

McGuiggan, pp. 56-58 lists several reports to show that "the fruit of the vine" was a substantial part of the food of the people." To remain so it must be preserved from fermentation by boiling or even drying.

"Considering Syria is a grape-growing country, the reader will be astonished to learn that comparatively little wine is made in it..." "...and that the fabrication of an intoxicating liquor was NEVER the chief object for which the grape was cultivated among the Jews..." (The Bible, The Saint, and the Liquor Industry, Jim McGuiggan, p. 61)..

Fred Peatross: After the Great Flood, Noah, a man of the soil, starts over by planting a vineyard and making wine. He is credited as being the first to plant a vineyard. Lamech, Noah's father, said that Noah would "bring us relief and comfort from our work and the toil of our hands.''

If the rest of the world's history counts for anything, the vine existed prior to the flood. Therefore, Noah could not plead ignorance.

We are having trouble finding Noah making wine a way to fulfill this prophecy:

And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort (let us breathe) us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the Lord hath cursed. Gen 5:29

Noah is from the word:

Nuwach (g5117) noo'-akh; a prim. root; to rest, i. e. settle down; used in a great variety of applications, lit. and fig., intrans., trans. and causat. (to dwell, stay, let fall, place, let alone, withdraw, give comfort, etc.): - cease, be confederate, lay, let down, (be) quiet, remain, (cause to, be at, give, have, make to) rest, set down. Comp. 3241.

One really doubts that the task of Noah was to create wine to give "quiet rest" in the settled homes. His own experience proves that this is not the fact. Conflict is always a product of wine.

It takes a lot of wine to put you to sleep and you may wake up having been "known" by your son.

Fred Peatross: With the first wine came the first occasion of drunkenness. The Bible warns of the dangers of too much wine. It declares wine is a mocker and whoever is led astray by it, is not wise. On the other side of the same coin, it reminds us God made the wine that gladdens the heart of man. Clearly, moderation is called for here.

It does not say that "too much" wine is a mocker. Wine is like Satan the Adversary: it has deception inherent in it. Most people would not get stung by the venom of Satan unless the "moderate use of wine" slipped up and stabbed them in the back. A "little bit drunk" is like "a little bit pregnant" and the Highway Patrol will take those COMMUNITY CHURCH MEMBERS into custody if they check them out. They are violating the law and are POTENTIAL murderers.

In Isaiah 5, the spiritual message is that God established Israel as His vineyard to bring forth grapes. Because they turned His "vineyard" into musical worship with wine and music, God tore down the walls and let the "beasts" into their nation or "church."

What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes (poison)? Isaiah 5:4

And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof , and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down: Isaiah 5: 5

And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it. Isaiah 5: 6

This means that God would take the Word away from them so that they hungered and thirsted for the Word even as they held daily religious festivals with wine and music.

God gave the vine to produce the GRAPE and not wine. The grape was a primary food product. When the people turned the grape into fermented wine here is what happened:

Yea, ten acres of vineyard shall yield one bath, and the seed of an homer shall yield an ephah. Isaiah 5: 10

That drink wine in bowls, and anoint themselves with the chief ointments: but they are not grieved for the affliction of Joseph. Am.6:6
Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them Isaiah 5: 11
That chant to the sound of the viol, and invent to themselves instruments of musick, like David Amos 6:5

Therefore now shall they go captive with the first that go captive, and the banquet of them that stretched themselves shall be removed. Am.6:7

And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine,

are in their feasts (religious festivals) but they regard not the work of the Lord, neither consider the operation of his hands. Isaiah 5: 12

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord: Amos 8:11
Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst. Isaiah 5: 13
And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day. Amos 8:10
And the mean man shall be brought down, and the mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled: Isaiah 5:15

 

Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down: Am.9:2

Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms (maggots) cover thee. Is.14:11

Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it. Isaiah 5: 14
If God made the wine then God made arsenic, nicotine, morphine and all known poisons. However, God created the vine which produces "the fruit of the vine" which will not, without lots of science, be chemically restructured into alcohol.

A recent TV program on wine technology pointed out that the grape carries the seed of its destruction upon its back in the form of thousands of forms of bacteria. Once the skin is broken the bacteria attacks the grape and usually rots it. Therefore, the "skin" is the God-designed barrier to keep out bacteria.

By the use of ancient science it was possible to get fermented wine but unless the process was stopped the wine would turn into vinegar or worse.

Modern science has allowed vintners to separate out certain yeasts from the grape and multiply it. At the same time, all of the natural yeast on the grape is destroyed with the ancient practice of using sulphur in various forms. Then if intoxication was the goal, the cultured yeast is added to the juice to produce wine which will not destroy itself.

Wine "which gladdens life," along with milk and water, was a food product and is innocent. Wine which is intoxicating was consumed for a purpose--to get drunk (See Ecc. 10:16-19). Kings who forgot this admonition were destructive to themselves and to the people over whom God had set them.

Woe to thee, O land, when thy king is a child, and thy princes eat in the morning Ecc 10:16

Blessed art thou, O land, when thy king is the son of nobles, and thy princes eat in due season, for strength (food), and not for drunkenness Ecc 10: 17

By much slothfulness the building decayeth; and through idleness of the hands the house droppeth through. Ecc 10: 18

A feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry: but money answereth all things. Ecc 10: 19

Get the joke?

He makes grass grow for the cattle, and plants for man to cultivate-- bringing forth food from the earth: Psalm 104:14

wine that gladdens the heart of man, oil to make his face shine, and bread that sustains his heart. Psalm 104:15

Thou hast put gladness in my heart, more than in the time that their corn and their wine increased. Ps.4:7

Wine is a food product of the vine or grape. However, water of the word provides our new gladness

Therefore with joy (gladness) shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation. Isa 12:3

Fred Peatross: The Bible doesn't say a great deal about the use of wine in ordinary life. It was customary to present wine to travelers. Paul recommended wine to Timothy as a digestive aid.

God did not supply wine in the wilderness ever for those perishing as they turned back to musical idolatry:

So the Lord alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him. Deut 32:12

He made him ride on the high places of the earth, that he might eat the increase of the fields; and he made him to suck honey out of the rock, and oil out of the flinty rock; Deut 32:13

Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape. De.32:14

But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation. Deut 32:15

Actually the Bible says a great deal about wine and we don't remember a passage which shows that anything good came from it unless it is given like a knock out drop to the perishing. If God actually made the alcohol wouldn't you think that He would say something good about it and not be so brutal in showing that wine is the symbol of the wrath He will pour out upon those who reject Him. This is probably the meaning of the wedding at Cana.

"The law forbade seor--yeast, ferment, whatever could excite fermentation--and khahmatz, whatever had undergone fermentation, or been subject to the action of seor." (Temperance Bible Commentary, p. 280).

"The great mass of the Jews have ever understood this prohibition as extending to fermented wine, or strong drink, as well as to bread. The word is essentially the same which designates the fermentation of bread and that of liquors." (Dr. S. M. Issacs, a Jewish rabbi of the last century, quoted by Patton, p. 83).

"The restrictions on grape products derive from the laws against using products of idolatry. Wine was commonly used in the rituals of all ancient religions, and wine was routinely sanctified for pagan purposes while it was being processed. For this reason, use of wines and other grape products made by non-Jews was prohibited. (Whole grapes are not a problem, nor are whole grapes in fruit cocktail).

Note: there is even a remedy for a priest who ate grape seed!

"For the most part, this rule only affects wine and grape juice. This becomes a concern with many fruit drinks or fruit-flavored drinks, which are often sweetened with grape juice. You may also notice that it is virtually impossible to find kosher baking powder, because baking powder is made with cream of tartar, a by-product of wine making."

"Wine of a place named "Perogaisa" is of extra-fine quality; its addictive power helped seduce the Exiled Ten Tribes from the Mitzvos: Shabbos 147b

Paul used the word "take" as when we say: "take the medicine." He did not give the teetotaler Timothy permission to drink intoxicants which would have further destroyed his stomach. Most of the benefits in wine are also found in the unfermented grape juice.

You may want to consult with a modern doctor.

"Aspirin is also a type of anti-inflammatory medicine and if you take it at the same time as your ibuprofen (or whatever anti-inflammatory drug), they could compete against each other in your body and/or increase your chance of stomach irritation or bleeding. Wine or any alcoholic drink can also cause stomach irritation, so your risks are compounded, and alcohol may affect your absorption of the medicine as well. Health Link

Drinking wine with many modern medications (to help us surve church rituals) is very dangerous to your health and can drive you to suicide.

Stomach wine

Pliny mentions a useful GOOD stomach wine, ADUMION, which is:"without power and without strength." He states that "for all the sick, wine is the most useful when its forces have been broken by the strainer."

The advice to be an indiscriminate drinker of wine would expose Timothy to "headaches, dropsy, madness, and stomach complaints." This is true even today where the consent to drink wine might expose the drinker to wine spiked with "wood alchol," which is a poison, and can and does kill the drinkers. So Paul has a particular wine in view as he prescribes, as a Physician, a specific wine for a specific stomach problem. Dousing the inflamed stomach with ethyl or wood alchol would not be good medical advice.

If its forces have been broken by filtering out the yeasts, it would eleminate the dangerous ones and it would be harmless.

"Stomach wine, or wine for the stomach, the old writers of Greek medicinetell us, was grape juice, prepared as a thick, unfermented syrup, for the use as a medicament for dispeptic and weak persons...The Apostles told his friend to use a little wine mixed with water..."

He continues, "This beverage given to invalids to whom it was apprehended that wine (fermented) may prove injurious." (Book XIV, Ch. 9)

I am not sure where this comes from but here is some data

To the third13 rank belonged the various wines of Alba, in the vicinity of the City, remarkable for their sweetness, and some- [p. 3241] times, though rarely, rough14 as well: the Surrentine15 wines, also, the growth of only stayed vines, which are especially recommended to invalids for their thinness and their wholesomeness. Tiberius Cæsar used to say that the physicians had conspired thus to dignify the Surrentinum, which was, in fact, only another name for generous vinegar; while Caius Cæsar, who succeeded him, gave it the name of "noble vappa." [oin-inos , ê, on, of wine, oxos wine-vinegar]

vappa, ae, f. [kindr. with vapor; cf. vapidus] , wine that has lost its spirit and flavor; palled, flat, vapid wine.

II. Transf., masc., a spoiled or worthless fellow, a good-fornothing,

And in 14:9

We will now, in a similar manner, give a description of the varieties found in the parts beyond sea. After the wines mentioned by Homer, and of which we have already spoken, those held in the highest esteem were the wines of Thasos and Chios, and of the latter more particularly the sort known as "Arvisium." By the side of these has been placed the wine of Lesbos,4 upon the authority of Erasistratus, a famous physician, who flourished about the year of the City of Rome

4 It was remarkable for its sweetness, and aromatics were sometimes mixed with it. Homer calls it harmless. Lesbos still produces choice wines.

14:19 The first of the artificial wines has wine for its basis; it is called "adynamon,"1 and is made in the following manner. Twenty sextarii of white must are boiled down with half that quantity of water, until the amount of the water is lost by evaporation. Some persons mix with the must ten sextarii of sea-water and an equal quantity of rain-water, and leave the whole to evaporate in the sun for forty days. This beverage is given to invalids to whom it is apprehended that wine may prove injurious.

1 From the Greek, meaning "without strength." The mixture, Fee remarks, would appear to be neither potable nor wholesome.

glukus , eia (-êa Herod.4.2 ), u (-un IG14.1890 ), sweet to the taste or smell, nektar b. of water, sweet, , of persons, sweet, dear, (sc. oinos) grape-syrup,

gluxis, eôs, hê, sweet insipid wine, Phryn. Com.65, Polyzel.12 (pl.), cf. Ath.1.31e:--also written gleuxis in Hsch.

Fred Peatross: It was used at feasts and marriages.

Corn can be stored, ground and made into bread. However, corn as grain has a season. In the same way, wine has a season when it comes from the vine. God does not make wine: the grapes will rot on the vine and never turn into wine. Wine is created by the art of mankind and is the fruit of the vat:

Therefore will I return, and take away my corn in the time thereof, and my wine in the season thereof, and will recover my wool and my flax given to cover her nakedness. Ho.2:9

Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness Hab.2:15

If Fred gives permission for people to drink wine just to escape from legalism into grace he should also be prepared to answer for the Fetal Alcohol Syndrome which assuredly Jesus would have know about. And he should stand up for the alcoholics who got permission to drink from the priest or preacher. It is a very dangerous game just to prove that abstainers are legalists.

"In the Holy Land they do not commonly use fermented wines. The best wines are preserved sweet and unfermented."

In reference to their customs at their religious festivals, he repeatedly and emphatically said:

'The Jews do not, in their feasts for sacred purposes, including the marriage feast, ever use any kind of fermented drinks. In their oblations and libations, both private and public, they employ the fruit of the vine--that is, fresh grapes -- unfermented grape - juice, and raisins, as the symbol of benediction.

"Fermentation is to them a symbol of corruption, as in nature and science it is itself decay, rottenness'." (Dr. S. M. Issacs, a Jewish rabbi of the last century, quoted by Patton, p. 83).

Jesus never spoke to the multitudes without using a parable. The story of the wedding is that of a fairly large group and the host has not supplied himself with wine or "oil" for his lamp. In the Odes of Solomon we can get the view of even common people at the time of Christ:

And I saw the destroyer of destruction, when the bride who is corrupted is adorned: and the

bridegroom who corrupts and is corrupted.

And I asked the Truth, 'Who are these?'; and He said to me,

'This is the deceiver and the error; odes, Ode 38:9-10
and they are alike in the
beloved and in his bride:
and
they lead astray and corrupt the whole world: odes, Ode 38:11

> and they invite many to the banquet, and

> give them to drink of the wine of their intoxication,

> and remove their wisdom and knowledge, and so they make them without intelligence" odes, Ode 38:12-13

That is the meaning of Spectacle worship or "holy entertainment" to replace the church as synagogue or school.

A wedding party is a good place to show that "marrying and giving in marriage" is the sign of the end-time religion:

For they shall eat, and not have enough: they shall commit whoredom, and shall not increase:

because they have left off to take heed to the Lord. Hos 4:10

Whoredom and wine and new wine take away the heart. Hos 4:11

My people ask counsel at their stocks, and their staff declareth unto them: for the spirit of whoredoms hath caused them to err, and they have gone a whoring from under their God. Hos 4:12

Fred Peatross: In times of scarcity it was mixed with water and sometimes even with milk. Its importance is evident in the fact that God, as a punishment, deprived Israel of it.

God never gave them wine any more than He gave them barley beer which was often contaminated with ergo which made youseem insane. A SANE housewife boiled the juice down about one third and then sealed it in a sterilized jar and sealed it with was. Many times it was a THICK SYRUP. Therefore, one added water just as one adds water to INSTANT TEA.

When Israel turned to drinking fermented wine and making music in their religious festivals He too away the Water as drink. However, the water was symbolic of the Word which had been lost beyond recovery.

Normally fermented wine might average 5% alcohol. A tippler or wine drinker was:

Hermes then defines a tippler:

Oh! the delicious tipple, half-wine, half-water!

However, it was not unusual to mix the wine with 20 parts of water. One who drank it straight from the vat (say 5-8%) or a tippler (say 2.5%) would be a disreputable character. What would the Lord say if He knew that Fred is advocating drinking 18% spiked up hard liquor?

Fred Peatross: Of the above-mentioned Bible stories, the most controversial, if not the most interesting is the story that came out of Cana.

Three days later there was a wedding in the village of Cana in Galilee. Jesus' mother was there. Jesus and his disciples were guests also. When they started running low on wine at the wedding banquet, Jesus' mother told him, "They're just about out of wine. "

We have looked this at length elsewhere. However:

AND the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there: John 2:1

So we don't have Jesus as the gregarious friend of sinners or a partygoer. His mother was at the wedding but not Jesus:

And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage. John 2:2

Kaleo (g2564) kal-eh'-o; akin to the base of 2753; to "call" (prop. aloud, but used in a variety of applications, dir. or otherwise): - bid, call (forth), (whose, whose sur-) name (was [called]).

Keleuo (g2753) kel-yoo'-o; from a prim. keålloÑ , (to urge on); "hail"; to incite by word, i.e. order: - bid, (at, give) command (- ment)

And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. John 2:3

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour (for miracles) is not yet come. John 2:4

The statement of Jesus was that this wedding was not his time to work a miracle. However, Mary pushed Him.

We should remember that the miracles of Jesus didn't convince the people: they were interested in wine and not in the word. Second, this was to accomodate the timing of Mary and not Jesus. Pouring out wine, if the group is already intoxicated, would be a sign of His glory as He poured out His wrath upon those, including His mother, who took no note of the Word of Jesus.

From the following, the wine and blood of the grape comes from the vine and then crushed in the vat. If one gets drunk on "wine" then it is intoxicating. However, the word is used of fresh grape juice as the product of crushing the life out of the grape:

The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be. Isaiah 49:10

Binding his foal unto the vine, and his asss colt unto the choice vine;

he washed his garments in wine,
and his
clothes in the blood of grapes: Isaiah 49:11

[Wine equals the blood of the grapes]

His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk. Isaiah 49:12

Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winevat? Isaiah 63:2

Both "wine" and "milk" are natural food products: only if you want to get drunk do you ferment the wine or blood of the grape.

He might say, "sleep on" or "drink on, your Messiah has been here and left. Therefore, I will give wine:

Give beer to those who are perishing (wandering away), wine to those who are in anguish; Pr.31:6

The bitter or anguished are:

Mar (h4751) mar; or (fem.) 4784 (rebelious or disobedient) maw-raw'; from 4843; bitter (lit. or fig.); also (as noun) bitterness, or (adv.) bitterly: - / angry, bitter (-ly, -ness), chafed, discontented, great, heavy.

Marah (h4748) maw-raw'; a prim. root; to be (caus. make) bitter (or unpleasant); (fig.) to rebel (or resist; causat. to provoke): - bitter, change, be disobedient, disobey, grievously, provocation, provoke (- ing), (be) rebel (against, -lious).

If you are Post Modern or Post Biblical then God says that you are rebelious and disobedient. Therefore, it is ok to supply the fellowship hall with all of the beer and wine you wish.

Fred Peatross: Jesus, however, not only replenished the supply, he made an additional 120 to 160 gallons.- Not only does this behavior contradict everything we have ever heard from prohibitionists, it causes us to re-evaluate the conventional understanding of the proper limit of drinking.

If this is intoxicating then Jesus manufactures and distributes what a modern person knows to be a poison. He not only approves of drinking wine but drunkeness for those Fred believes were already drunk.

Fred Peatross: I certainly know the dangers of drinking, both privately and publicly, and this may be reason enougl to discount my thoughts on the wedding Jesus attended almost two tllollsalld years ago in Cana, but I can't help but wonder if we've denied Christians the scriptural freedom to drink with moderation?

Fred has just given Christians the freedom to drink beyond moderation. Tests have shown that an earthworm will not go through a maze on the path which shocks him after three times. Just what is it about wine (wineskins) which demands that we give Christians permission to do what an earthworm would not do. If you ferment grapes naturally and dilute it with up to 20 parts water you have my permission. If you drink wine diluted to about 2.5% alcohol the people of the time would identify you as a tippler.

It is extremely rare to hear one claiming to speak for God who would accuse Jesus of being a base, evil person. And even rarer to hear a "scholar" who does not know the historical facts:

Q. In John, Chapter 2, where Jesus turned the water into wine; was this intoxicating wine?

A. The answer is, "No", and here are the facts.The Greek word for "wine" here is "oinos".It is a GENERIC word which includes all kinds of wine and all stages of the juice of the grape, sometimes the clusters, and even the vine.The word itself, therefore, cannot give us the answer. In Proverbs 20:1 we are told that "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."Would it not be derogatory to the character of Christ to suppose that He exerted His miraculous power to produce 60 gallons of intoxicating wine. Wine which the Bible had denounced as "a mocker" (Proverbs 20:1), "biting like a serpent" and "stinging like an adder" (Proverbs 23:32), as the "poison of dragons" (Psalm 58:4), "the cruel venom of asps (Deuteronomy 32:33), and which the Holy Spirit had selected as the emblem of God's wrath (Revelation 16:19).

"Another fact is that alcohol does not occur naturally in any product of nature, was never created by God; but is essentially an artificial thing prepared by man through the destructive process of fermentation. A man who visited Palestine 130 years ago, researching Bible wines, quoted the following:

"All who know of the wines then used, well understand the unfermented juice of the grape.The present wines of Jerusalem and Lebanon, as we tasted them, were commonly boiled and sweet, without intoxicating qualities, such as we here get in liquors called wines.The boiling prevents fermentation.

Those were esteemed the best wines which were least strong."

"This event, the Wedding at Cana, furnishes no sanction for the use of alcoholic beverages today. Dr. Max D. Younce

George Whitefield:

"When men have well drunken," but it nowhere appears that they were the men. Is it to be supposed, that the most holy and unspotted Lamb of God, who was manifested to destroy the works of the devil, and who, when at a Pharisee's house, took notice of even the gestures of those with whom he sat at meat;

is it to be supposed, that our dear Redeemer, whose constant practice it was to tell people they must deny themselves, and take up their crosses daily; who bid his disciples to take heed, lest at any time their hearts might be over-charged with surfeiting and drunkenness; can it be supposed, that such a self-denying Jesus should now turn six large water-pots of water into the richest wine, to encourage excess and drunkenness in persons, who, according to this writer, had indulged to pleasure and cheerfulness already?

Had our Lord sat by, and seen them indulge, without telling them of it, would it not be a sin? But to insinuate he not only did this, but also turned water into wine, to increase that indulgence; this is making Christ a minister of sin indeed.

What is this, but using him like the Pharisees of old, who called him a glutton, and a wine-bibber?

Alas! how may we expect our dear Lord's enemies will treat him, when he is thus wounded in the house of his seeming friends?

Sirs, if you follow such doctrine as this, you will not be righteous, but I am persuaded you will be wicked over-much.

Lenski: "Those who charge Jesus with manufacturing intoxicants are "eager to mar, if by any means they could, the image of a perfect Holiness, which offends and rebukes them." (Quoting Trench)

Can we drink a mocker in moderation? Should be just get stung moderately by an adder? Would you suggest drinking the poison of dragons in moderation? How about the venom of asps in moderation?

Go ahead if you please but why is it important to charge churches of Christ with some kind of legalism for rejecting what the world's knowledge base rejects?

Moderation to Fred might be almost instant addiciton to others. What is the point of making moderation in drinking poison a part of the dogma of the emerging church of Christ? We won't go there and we won't subscribe to the false charge of the adversaries of God that Jesus was a wine drinker.

Kenneth Sublett

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