Speak Where the Bible Speaks: Terry L. Miethe
Subject: Re: Index
From: Dr. Terry L. Miethe <tmiethe@tds.net>
To: Kenneth Sublett <blituri@hughes.net>
Terry L. Miethe: You just do not get it. Evidently cannot get it. The use or nonuse of instrumental music has NOTHING to do with the "Bible" at all. And, NO what you post is not in agreement with the Bible or your so-called "known" history. It is in agreement with your bigoted misuse of reason and "history" to incorrectly argue a point that shouldn't even be argued! You are just the kind of person Chesterton was warning about with regard to the "irrepressible half truths masquerading as Truth."
You do not know nearly as much as you think you do about church history, the Bible, or Campbell, etc. In fact, you are the perfect example of the danger of a "half education." I have worked with dozens, perhaps hundreds of engineers and there is a reason they have a reputation for having "tunnel vision." I wrote two Ph.D. dissertations at two major universities - USC and Oxford - on Alexander Campbell's Social Ethics and Educational Theory, and own and have read the complete Millennial Harbinger, as well as owning Campbell first editions. Campbell found himself at the "head" of a movement of bigots and reactionaries very early on. But not wanting to have a split in his young movement, he when to the extreme of having others voice his opinion in the Harbinger. MANY - not all - of the church of Christ "creators" were of this reactionary and hotheaded lot! A FACT OF HISTORY!
Not remotely close to the truth: Campbell wrote:being founded on the Jewish pattern of things--baptism being given to all born into the world of these politico-ecclesiastic communities--
I wonder not, then, that an organ, a fiddle, or a Jews-harp, should be requisite to stir up their carnal hearts, and work into ecstasy their animal souls, else "hosannahs languish on their tongues, and their devotions die."
And that all persons who have no spiritual discernment, taste, or relish for their spiritual meditations, consolations and sympathies of renewed hearts, should call for such aid, is but natural.
Pure water from the flinty rock has no attractions for the mere toper or wine-bibber. A little alcohol, or genuine Cognac brandy, or good old Madeira, is essential to the beverage to make it truly refreshing.
So to those who have no real devotion or spirituality in them, and whose animal nature flags under the oppression of church service, I think with Mr. G., that instrumental music would be not only a desideratum, but an essential prerequisite to fire up their souls to even animal devotion.
But I presume, to all spiritually-minded Christians, such aids would be as a cow bell in a concert.
As a Presbyterian the Campbells had always rejected the use of instruments. That is why it would be pretty silly to accuse church of Christ bigods. See John Calvin.
Of Psalm 71:22. We are not, indeed, forbidden to use, in private, musical instruments, but they are banished out of the churches by the plain command of the Holy Spirit, when Paul, in 1 Corinthians 14:13, lays it down as an invariable rule, that we must praise God, and pray to him only in a known tongue. By the word of truth, the Psalmist means that the hope which he reposed in God was rewarded, when God preserved him in the midst of dangers.
The promises of God, and his truth in performing them, are inseparably joined together.
Unless we depend upon the word of God, all the benefits which he confers upon us will be unsavoury or tasteless to us;nor will we ever be stirred up either to prayer or thanksgiving,
if we are not previously illuminated by the Divine word.So much the more revolting, then, is the folly of that diabolical man, Servetus, who teaches that the rule of praying is perverted
as if we could have any access into the presence of God, until he first invited us by his own voice to come to him.
Then Terry L. Miethe is right and ALL of history is wrong! All musical terms in the Greek language speak of enchantment or sorcery in John's word.
Plato Ion "[534a] just as the Corybantian worshipers do not dance when in their senses, so the lyric poets do not indite those fine songs in their senses, but when they have started on the melody and rhythm they begin to be frantic, and it is under possession--as the bacchants are possessed, and not in their senses, when they draw honey and milk from the rivers--that the soul of the lyric poets does the same thing, by their own report. For the poets tell us, I believe, that the songs they bring us are the sweets they cull from honey-dropping founts.
Note: The Corybantes were priests of Cybele or Rhea, mother of Zeus and other Olympian gods, and she was worshipped with wild music and frenzied dancing which, like the bacchic revels or orgies of women in honor of Dionysus, carried away the participants despite and beyond themselves. Cf. Eurip. Bacchae.
Terry L. Miethe: Let me give you just one example, which "prayerfully" will help clear things up for you; e.g. what the Campbell's really meant by the slogan: "Where the Scripture speaks, we speak; where the Scriptures are silent we are silent." which has so, so often been interpreted as exactly the opposite of what it meant by the fundamentalists in the church of Christ. You cannot make an argument against something based on silence! You cannot use this slogan to say that because something is not mentioned that it is prohibited. In fact, the slogan means EXACTLY the other position.
REJECTION OF THE BIBLICAL PRINCIPLE
No, it is not woroth dividing the church over: That is why SECTARIAN happened when the people confessed that they needed musical instruments because of the huge "space race" of building grand buildings after the carpet bags ran empty. Those who imposed instruments deliberately divided the Disciples but those known as the Church of Christ were never "joined" in any sense of organization: you cannot UNITE congregational groups with another.Rubel Shelly: We repeat Rubel Shelly's statement: "Where the Bible speaks, we speak; where the Bible is silent, we are silent."
But hold on! Where did that dictum come from? It's not a Bible verse. It's a well-worn religious slogan that I think has some very positive value.
But is it foundational enough to build a hermeneutic or theology on it? Is this human rubric (Rubric means: Red chapter heading) so sacred that it would be worth dividing the Body of Christ for the sake of our different slants on it?
REJECTION OF THE BIBLICAL PRINCIPLEHowever, it is a huge concession since the slogan comes from God! The Post-Modern "hermeneutic" of the Latter Rain (or Latter Reign) asks:
"Are you having difficulty discerning or receiving this "new revelation"?
Then you have been interpreting your Bible in the "old way,"comparing Scripture with Scripture, studying diligently to account for every jot and tittle and being careful to rightly divide the Word of truth.
"If this describes you, then you belong to the "Old Generation"
which will not enter in to "possess the land" in the Latter Rain Revival. [New Wineskins]
You may even be a member of a denominational church, with its dogmatic confession of faith and statement of doctrine.These legalistic forms will be relics of the past in the up and coming "Post-denominational Church."
Paul Cain advises that you "dump all that carnal stuff" (doctrine)
and listen to what the "spirit" is saying to the churches through the Latter Rain Prophets and Apostles, who are dispensing many "new, sacred truths."The reason the "scholars" think the Laidity are stupid is that they do run in a rare atmosphere of "theology" not knowing that Jesus said that "doctors of the law take away the key to knowledge." They measure their views by peer review but prove that they have never read anything which existed before the NEW PROPHETS AND APOSTLES. The rest of the world considers them the irnorant ones.
WHY THE REJECTION OF THE BIBLICAL PRINCIPLE
Captain Edward Johnson, in about 1631, wrote on what became Harvard University. The learned, reverend, and judicious Mr. Henry Dunster had received a patron for establishing a college. And he notes:
"And as in all the other passages of this history the Wonder-working Providence of Sion's Saviour hath appeared, so especially in this work,
the Fountains of learning being in a great measure stopped in our native Country at this time, so that the sweet waters of Shilo's streams must ordinarily pass into the Churches through the stinking channel of prelatical pride, beside all the filth that the fountains themselves were daily encumbered withal, insomuch that the Lord turned aside often from them, and refused the breathing of his blessed Spirit among them, which caused Satan (in these latter days of his transformation into an Angel of light)
to make it a means to persuade people from the use of learning althgether, that so in the next generation they might be destitute of such helps as the Lord hath been pleased hitherto to make use of,
as chief means for the conversion of his people and building them up in the most holy faith, as also for breaking down the Kingdom of Antichrist."
WHAT THE VERY ANCIENT AND UNIVERSAL SLOGAN MEANT PRE DENOMINATIONS
Thomas Campbell Declaration and Address. Centennial Edition published when the Deciples declared their status as a denomination to "include all of christendom."IV. That this Society by no means considers itself a Church,
nor does at all assume to itself the powers peculiar to such a society;
nor do the members, as such, consider themselves as standing connected
in that relation;
nor as at all associated for the peculiar purposes of Church association;
but merely as voluntary advocates for Church reformation; and, as possessing the powers common to all individuals, who may please to associate in a peaceable and orderly manner, for any lawful purpose, namely, the disposal of their time, counsel, and property, as they may see cause.
V. That this Society, formed for the sole purpose of promoting simple evangelical Christianity, shall, to the utmost of its power, countenance and support such ministers, and such only, as exhibit a manifest conformity to the original standard in conversation and doctrine, in zeal and diligence;
only such as reduce to practice that simple original form of Christianity,
expressly EXHIBITED upon the sacred page;without attempting to inculcate anything of human authority, of private opinion, or inventions of men, as having any place in the constitution, faith, or worship, of the Christian Church, or anything as matter of Christian faith or duty,
for which there can not be expressly produced a "Thus saith the Lord, either in express terms, or by approved precedent.
Therefore, the express commands to preserve and maintain inviolate Christian unity and love, ought not to be set aside to make way
for exalting our inferences [25]
above the express authority of God.
Our inference, upon the whole, is, that where a professing Christian brother opposes or refuses nothing either in faith or practice,
for which there can be expressly produced a "Thus saith the Lord,"
that we ought not to reject him because he can not see with our eyes as to matters of human inference, of private judgment. "Through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish? How walkest thou not charitably?"They got that idea from Paul who outlawed doubtful disputations which were confined to the marketplace (Romans) while the "synagogue" is defined in Romans 15 for Bible study ONLY.'
Commenting on Phil 2:14, MacArthur notes that dialogismos...
soon developed the more specific ideas of questioning, doubting, or disputing the truth of a matter. In Romans 14:1, the word is used of passing judgment on another believer’s opinions and in 1 Timothy 2:8 it is rendered “dissension.” Whereas grumbling is essentially emotional, disputing is essentially intellectual. A person who continues to murmur and grumble against God will eventually argue and dispute with Him. (MacArthur, J. Philippians. Chicago: Moody Press)
Terry L. Miethe: The rather obvious emphasis of this slogan was that the authority of the scriptures must be the basis of Christian discussion. When the scriptures are silent on any matter, then that matter should not, indeed must not, be made a test of belief or communion among Christians. Matters not specifically delineated in scriptures could be discussed, but they must not be made points of theology or tests of fellowship. [Duh!] While this slogan was instantly accepted by the new group in theory, it proved much more problematic in application in the years ahead.... eitherIt refers to an opinion and then to a deliberating and a questioning about what is true as in Luke 24:38.
It is found in the Greek writings from Plato down where it referred to the thinking of a man deliberating with himself (Lu 2:25, 5:22, 6:8, 9:46ff, Ro 14:1). It was used to describe the reasoning of those who thought themselves wise (Ro 1:21, 1Cor 3:20). James 2:4 uses it to mean opinion referring to judges with evil thoughts or who follow perverse opinions or reprehensible principles.
Vine notes that dialogismos is...
chiefly in the N.T. in an evil sense, of reasonings that are the outcome of self-will, reasonings of the natural mind in independence of God. So in the LXX (e.g., Lam. 3:60), “imaginations.”...Dialogismos sometimes means inward questioning, sometimes dispute... the inward reasonings which find expression in controversy and contention. (Vine, W. Collected Writings of W. E. Vine. Nashville: Thomas Nelson )
The Spirit of Christ defined the true Sabbath or Rest which outlawed seeking one's own pleasure or "speaking one's own words."
Terry L. Miethe claims to be an expert on Augustine who like the Bible and church history before him articulated the "speak where the Bible speaks." Augustine of Hippo (354-430) "Where the Bible Speaks."
Letter LV. or Book II-VII. of Replies to Questions of Januarius. (a.d. 400.)
while the play-actors may interfere with our mentioning the harp in the book of Psalms.
Let them therefore say, if they please, that,
because similitudes for the exhibition of the mysteries of God's word are taken from the things which I have named,we are chargeable either with consulting the omens given by the flight of birds, or with concocting the poisons of the charmer,
or with taking pleasure in the excesses of the theatre,-a statement which would be the clime of absurdity.
XVIII: 34. I am surprised at your expressing a desire that I should write anything in regard to those ceremonies which are found different in different countries, because there is no necessity for my doing this; and, moreover,
"one most excellent rule must be observed in regard to these customs,
- > "when they do not in any way oppose either true doctrine or sound morality,
- > but contain some incentives to the better life,
[But once they have been introduced they become the rule and to try to return to true doctrine is to sow discord] viz., that wherever we see them observed, or know them to be established,
we should not only refrain from finding fault with them, but even recommend them by our approval and imitation,
"In such a case we ought by all means to adopt it,unless restrained by fear of doing greater harm than good.
> especially if it be something in defense of which Scripture can be alleged: as in the singing of hymns and psalms,
- > for which we have on record both the example and the precepts of the Lord and of His apostles.
- This, dear Campbell critic, means Command, Example or Precept!
In this religious exercise, so useful for inducing a devotional frame of mind and inflaming the strength of love to God, there is diversity of usage,
and in Africa the members of the Church are rather too indifferent in regard to it; on which account the Donstists reproach
us with our grave chanting of the divine songs of the prophets in our churches,
while they inflame their passions in their revels by the singing of psalms of human composition, which rouse them like the stirring notes of the trumpet on the battle-field.(In the assembly) But when brethren are assembled in the church, why should not the time be devoted to singing of sacred songs, excepting of course while reading or preaching is going on, or while the presiding minister prays aloud, or the united prayer of the congregation is led by the deacon's voice?
(outside the assembly) At the other intervals not thus occupied, I do not see what could be a more excellent, useful, and holy exercise for a Christian congregation.
Origen Book VI, Chapter XLI speaking of the "god" to whom God abandoned Israel because of musical idolatry.
In the next place, as if he had forgotten that it was his object to write against the Christians, he says that, "having become acquainted with one Dionysius, an Egyptian musician,
Alawys denounced: "the latter told him, with respect to magic arts,
that it was only over the uneducated and men of corrupt morals that they had any power,Alawys approved: "while on philosophers they were unable to produce any effect, because they were careful to observe a healthy manner of life."
That was how you played the blame game 1600 years ago. Elijah knew something about the attack of the musical prophets of Baal and Asherah under Jezebel, another end-time patternism.
Even while the MUSIC word is never used once in connection with the assembly of God's people--for instuction only--most religious groups were fractured in the 19th century by people using the "Lucifer principle" to bleed off worship and money too themselves. It cannot be a test of fellowship UNLESS someone forces an instrument into a peaceable church knowing that it will sow discord: those who opposed, like J.W.McGarvey and others were silenced and most were disfellowshipped because their mouths were shut.
The view of Scripture and Augustine and everyone was that you cannot IMPOSE on others that for which you have no Scriptural authority. The Campbells followed Paul and defined church as "a school of the Bible" and worship as "reading and musing the Word of God." The whole society can gather on the Lord's day if you follow that Biblical and minimally-ethical "rubric." Paul specificially outlawed "doubtful disputations" which are opinions which arise out of one's own thinking: this flies in the face of Peter's outlawing private interpretation or further expounding.
However, that community "bible study" was wrestled by the merchantile class into "churches" where they followed their own agenda which included music as a way to "fill the coffers" even when the Bible and church history denies that there is a "law of goving.
What they IMPOSED to destroy the ekklesia or synagogue of Christ was always identified as sorcery because it used exrternal means to FORCE people to experience some sensation of the flesh. Strabo speaks of the "lord lord prophesying" which Jesus denounced:
Strabo Geography 10.3.9"The religious frenzy seems to afford a kind of divine inspiration and to be very like that of the Soothsayer.. "For although it has been well said that human beings then act most like the gods when they are doing good to others, yet one might better say, when they are happy; and such happiness consists of rejoicing, celebrating festivals, pursuing philosophy, and engaging in music; for, if music is perverted when musicians turn their art to sensual delights at symposiums and in orchestric and scenic performances and the like, we should not lay the blame upon music itself, but should rather examine the nature of our system of education, since this is based on music.
Terry L. Miethe: Let me give you just one example, which "prayerfully" will help clear things up for you; e.g. what the Campbell's really meant by the slogan: "Where the Scripture speaks, we speak; where the Scriptures are silent we are silent." which has so, so often been interpreted as exactly the opposite of what it meant by the fundamentalists in the church of Christ. You cannot make an argument against something based on silence! You cannot use this slogan to say that because something is not mentioned that it is prohibited. In fact, the slogan means EXACTLY the other position.
No, it is not woroth dividing the church over: That is why SECTARIAN happened when the people confessed that they needed musical instruments because of the huge "space race" of building grand buildings after the carpet bags ran empty. Those who imposed instruments deliberately divided the Disciples but those known as the Church of Christ were never "joined" in any sense of organization: you cannot UNITE congregational groups with another.Rubel Shelly: We repeat Rubel Shelly's statement: "Where the Bible speaks, we speak; where the Bible is silent, we are silent."
But hold on! Where did that dictum come from? It's not a Bible verse. It's a well-worn religious slogan that I think has some very positive value.
But is it foundational enough to build a hermeneutic or theology on it? Is this human rubric (Rubric means: Red chapter heading) so sacred that it would be worth dividing the Body of Christ for the sake of our different slants on it?
However, it is a huge concession since the slogan comes from God! The Post-Modern "hermeneutic" of the Latter Rain (or Latter Reign) asks:
"Are you having difficulty discerning or receiving this "new revelation"?
Then you have been interpreting your Bible in the "old way,"comparing Scripture with Scripture, studying diligently to account for every jot and tittle and being careful to rightly divide the Word of truth.
"If this describes you, then you belong to the "Old Generation"
which will not enter in to "possess the land" in the Latter Rain Revival. [New Wineskins]
You may even be a member of a denominational church, with its dogmatic confession of faith and statement of doctrine.These legalistic forms will be relics of the past in the up and coming "Post-denominational Church."
Paul Cain advises that you "dump all that carnal stuff" (doctrine)
and listen to what the "spirit" is saying to the churches through the Latter Rain Prophets and Apostles, who are dispensing many "new, sacred truths."The reason the "scholars" think the Laidity are stupid is that they do run in a rare atmosphere of "theology" not knowing that Jesus said that "doctors of the law take away the key to knowledge." They measure their views by peer review but prove that they have never read anything which existed before the NEW PROPHETS AND APOSTLES. The rest of the world considers them the irnorant ones.
Captain Edward Johnson, in about 1631, wrote on what became Harvard University. The learned, reverend, and judicious Mr. Henry Dunster had received a patron for establishing a college. And he notes:
"And as in all the other passages of this history the Wonder-working Providence of Sion's Saviour hath appeared, so especially in this work,
the Fountains of learning being in a great measure stopped in our native Country at this time, so that the sweet waters of Shilo's streams must ordinarily pass into the Churches through the stinking channel of prelatical pride, beside all the filth that the fountains themselves were daily encumbered withal, insomuch that the Lord turned aside often from them, and refused the breathing of his blessed Spirit among them, which caused Satan (in these latter days of his transformation into an Angel of light)
to make it a means to persuade people from the use of learning althgether, that so in the next generation they might be destitute of such helps as the Lord hath been pleased hitherto to make use of,
as chief means for the conversion of his people and building them up in the most holy faith, as also for breaking down the Kingdom of Antichrist."
As an example, Terry L. Miethe claims to be an expert on Augustine who like the Bible and church history before him articulated the "speak where the Bible speaks."
Augustine of Hippo (354-430) "Where the Bible Speaks."
Letter LV. or Book II-VII. of Replies to Questions of Januarius. (a.d. 400.)
while the play-actors may interfere with our mentioning the harp in the book of Psalms.
Let them therefore say, if they please, that,
because similitudes for the exhibition of the mysteries of God's word are taken from the things which I have named,we are chargeable either with consulting the omens given by the flight of birds, or with concocting the poisons of the charmer,
or with taking pleasure in the excesses of the theatre,-a statement which would be the clime of absurdity.
XVIII: 34. I am surprised at your expressing a desire that I should write anything in regard to those ceremonies which are found different in different countries, because there is no necessity for my doing this; and, moreover,
"one most excellent rule must be observed in regard to these customs,
- > "when they do not in any way oppose either true doctrine or sound morality,
- > contain some incentives to the better life,
[But once they have been introduced they become the rule and to try to return to true doctrine is to sow discord] viz., that wherever we see them observed, or know them to be established,
we should not only refrain from finding fault with them, but even recommend them by our approval and imitation,
"In such a case we ought by all means to adopt it,unless restrained by fear of doing greater harm than good.
> especially if it be something in defense of which Scripture can be alleged: as in the singing of hymns and psalms,
- > for which we have on record both the example and the precepts of the Lord and of His apostles.
- This, dear Campbell critic, means Command, Example or Precept!
In this religious exercise, so useful for inducing a devotional frame of mind and inflaming the strength of love to God, there is diversity of usage,
and in Africa the members of the Church are rather too indifferent in regard to it; on which account the Donstists reproach
us with our grave chanting of the divine songs of the prophets in our churches,
while they inflame their passions in their revels by the singing of psalms of human composition, which rouse them like the stirring notes of the trumpet on the battle-field.(In the assembly) But when brethren are assembled in the church, why should not the time be devoted to singing of sacred songs, excepting of course while reading or preaching is going on, or while the presiding minister prays aloud, or the united prayer of the congregation is led by the deacon's voice?
That was how you played the blame game 1600 years ago. Elijah knew something about the attack of the musical prophets of Baal and Asherah under Jezebel, anoth(outside the assembly) At the other intervals not thus occupied, I do not see what could be a more excellent, useful, and holy exercise for a Christian congregation.
That was how you played the blame game 1600 years ago. Elijah knew something about the attack of the musical prophets of Baal and Asherah under Jezebel, another end-time patternism.
Terry L. Miethe: The rather obvious emphasis of this slogan was that the authority of the scriptures must be the basis of Christian discussion. When the scriptures are silent on any matter, then that matter should not, indeed must not, be made a test of belief or communion among Christians. Matters not specifically delineated in scriptures could be discussed, but they must not be made points of theology or tests of fellowship. [Duh!] While this slogan was instantly accepted by the new group in theory, it proved much more problematic in application in the years ahead....
Even while the MUSIC word is never used once in connection with the assembly of God's people--for instuction only--most religious groups were fractured in the 19th century by people using the "Lucifer principle" to bleed off worship and money too themselves. It cannot be a test of fellowship UNLESS someone forces an instrument into a peaceable church knowing that it will sow discord: those who opposed, like J.W.McGarvey and others were silenced and most were disfellowshipped because their mouths were shut.
The Catholic Encyclopedia notes:
The view of Scripture and Augustine and everyone was that you cannot IMPOSE on others that for which you have no Scriptural authority. The Campbells followed Paul and defined church as "a school of the Bible" and worship as "reading and musing the Word of God." The whole society can gather on the Lord's day if you follow that Biblical and minimally-ethical "rubric." Paul specificially outlawed "doubtful disputations" which are opinions which arise out of one's own thinking: this flies in the face of Peter's outlawing private interpretation or further expounding.McEvilly in his "Commentary" applies them to public and private meetings. St Augustine (Ep. cxix, ch. xviii) says:
"As to the singing of psalms and hymns, we have the proofs, the examples, and the instructions of the Lord Himself, and of the Apostles". (Cf. also Col., iii, 16; I Cor., xiv, 26.)
In the ancient congregational singing both sexes took part; the words of St. Paul imposing silence on women in church being interpreted to refer only to exhorting or instructing.
Duchesne describes how the earliest worship of the Christians was parallel to that, not of the Temple of the Jews at Jerusalem, but of the local synagogues, the Christians borrowing thence their four elements of Divine service-
the lections (reading parts of Scripture),
the chants (of the Psalter),
the homilies (explaining those passages of scriptures),
and the prayers.
However, that community "bible study" was wrestled by the merchantile class into "churches" where they followed their own agenda which included music as a way to "fill the coffers" even when the Bible and church history denies that there is a "law of goving.
Home Page
Musical Worship Index
Restoration Movement
8.12.08